Mark Zuckerberg: First Interview in the Metaverse | Lex Fridman Podcast #398
发布时间 2023-09-28 17:20:52 来源
The following is a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg inside the metaverse. Mark and I are hundreds of miles apart from each other in physical space, but it feels like we're in the same room because we're a peer to each other as photorealistic codec avatars in 3D with spatial audio. This technology is incredible and I think it's the future of how human beings connect to each other in a deeply meaningful way on the internet.
以下是我与马克·扎克伯格在元宇宙中的一次对话。马克和我在现实空间中距离相隔数百英里，但感觉就像我们在同一个房间里，因为我们以3D全息头像的方式相互交流，并配以立体音频。这项技术非常惊人，我认为它是人类在互联网上以一种深层有意义的方式连接的未来。
These avatars can capture many of the nuances of facial expressions that we use, we humans use to communicate emotion to each other. Now I just need to work on upgrading my emotions, expressing capabilities of the underlying human. This is the Lex Friedman podcast and now dear friends, here's Mark Zuckerberg.
这些人物形象可以捕捉我们人类用于表达情感的面部表情的许多细微差别。现在，我只需要努力提升自己作为人类的情感表达能力。这是Lex Friedman的播客，亲爱的朋友们，接下来请听马克·扎克伯格的访谈。
This is so great. Lighting change? And it doesn't feel awkward to be really close to you. No it does. I actually moved you back a few feet before you got into the headset. You were like right here. I don't know if people can see this, but this is incredible. The realism here is just incredible. Where am I? Where are you Mark? Where are we? You're in Austin, right? No, I mean this place. We're shrouded by darkness with ultra realistic face and just feels like we're in the same room. This is really the most incredible thing I've ever seen. And sorry to be in your personal space. I mean we have done digestive before. Yeah, I was commenting to the team before that even that I feel like we've choked each other from further distances than it feels like we are right now. I mean this is just really incredible. I don't know how to describe it with words. It really feels like we're in the same room. Yeah. Feels like the future. This is truly, truly incredible. I just wanted to take it in. I'm still getting used to it. It's like it's you. It's really you. But you're not here with me, right? Right? You're there wearing a headset and I'm wearing a headset. It's really, really incredible.
这太棒了。灯光变了吗？而且和你真的很近却不感到尴尬。不是的，实际上在你戴上头盔之前，我已经把你往后移了几英尺。你就在这里。我不知道大家是否能看出来，但这真是难以置信。这里的真实感太惊人了。我在哪里？马克在哪里？我们在哪里？你在奥斯汀，对吧？不，我指的是这个地方。我们被黑暗所笼罩，拥有超逼真的面部，感觉就像我们在同一个房间里。这真是我见过的最令人难以置信的事情。对于侵犯你的私人空间，我感到抱歉。我意思是我们以前也做过亲近的事情。是的，我之前对团队说过，即使是我们互相勒住对方的距离，也没有现在感觉得近。这真是太不可思议了。我不知道用言语该如何形容。真的感觉就像我们在同一个房间里。是的。感觉就像是未来。这真的，真的太不可思议了。我只是想静静地感受一下。我还在适应中。就像你本人一样。真的是你。但你没在我身边，对吧？对吧？你在那里戴着头盔，而我也戴着头盔。真的，真的太不可思议了。
So what can you describe what it takes currently for us to appear so photo realistic to each other? Yeah. So I mean for background, we both did these scans for this research project that we have at Meta called Kodak avatars and the idea is that instead of actually, instead of our avatar as being cartoony, and instead of actually transmitting a video, what it does is we've sort of scanned ourselves and a lot of different expressions and we've built a computer model of sort of each of our faces and bodies and the different expressions that we make and collapsed that into a Kodak that then when you have the headset on your head, it can it sees your face, it sees your expression, and it can basically send an encoded version of what you're supposed to look like over the wire. So in addition to being photo realistic, it's also actually much more bandwidth efficient than transmitting a full video or especially a 3D immersive video of a whole scene like this. And it captures everything like the flaws, like to me, the subtleties of the human face, like even the flaws, that's like, that's all amazing. It makes you, it makes it so much more immersive. It makes you realize that like perfection isn't the thing that leads to immersion. It's like the little subtle flaws like crackles and like variations in color and just yeah wrinkles, all stuff about roses, yeah asymmetry and just the different like the corners of the eyes, like what your eyes do when you smile, all that kind of stuff. Yeah eyes are a huge part of it.
那么，你能描述一下目前我们之间看起来如此逼真的效果需要什么吗？是的。我是说，背景是，我们为了Meta公司的一个名为Kodak avatars的研究项目进行了这些扫描。这个想法是，我们的化身不再是卡通状的，而是通过对我们自己进行多种表情的扫描，构建了一个包含每个人面部和身体以及制造的不同表情的计算机模型，然后将其压缩成一幅Kodak照片。当你戴上头盔时，它可以识别你的脸部和表情，并通过传输线路发送一个编码版本的你应该看起来像什么。除了逼真的外观，这种方法在带宽利用效率上也比传输完整视频或尤其是整个场景的3D沉浸式视频要高很多。它捕捉到了一切，包括缺陷，对我来说，人脸的细微差别，甚至是缺陷，这一切都是令人惊奇的。它让体验更加沉浸，让你意识到完美并不能导致沉浸感。而是观察到一些小细微的缺陷，像颜色的变化、皱纹等等。对于玫瑰花来说，不对称和眼角的区别，咱们微笑时的眼睛的变化，所有这些都是其中的重要部分。
Yeah, I mean there's all the studies that most of communication, even when people are speaking, is not actually the words that they're saying, right? It's kind of the expression and all that. So we try to capture that with the kind of classical expressive avatar system that we have, that's the kind of more cartoon designed one you can kind of put those kind of expressions on those faces as well. But there's obviously a certain realism that comes with delivering kind of this photorealistic experience that I just think it's really magical. I mean this gets to kind of the core of what the vision around virtual and augmented reality is, of like delivering a sense of presence, as if you're there together no matter where you actually are in the world. And I mean this experience I think is a good embodiment of that where it's like having to learn two completely different states halfway across the country. And it just like, you know, looks like you're just sitting right in front of me. It's pretty wild.
是的，我的意思是大多数的沟通，即使人们在说话，实际上并不是他们所说的话，对吧？这更多地涉及到表情等方面。所以我们尝试通过我们拥有的经典表现力化身系统来捕捉这一点，也就是那种更卡通化设计的系统，你可以在这些脸上表现出这些表情。但是，通过提供这种逼真的体验，自然会有一定程度的真实感，我觉得这真的很神奇。我的意思是，这归根结底是虚拟现实和增强现实的愿景，即无论你在世界的哪个地方，都能传递一种在一起的存在感。我认为这种体验很好地体现了这一点，就好像你要学习另外两个完全不同的状态，而你看起来就像是坐在我面前一样，真是太不可思议了。
Yeah, yeah, I can't. I'm almost getting emotional. It's like it feels like a totally fundamental new experience. Like for me to have this kind of conversation with loved ones, it would just change everything.
是的，是的，我做不到。我快要情感激动了。就好像这感觉是一种完全根本全新的经历。对我来说，与亲人进行这样的对话，将会改变一切。
Maybe just to elaborate so I went to Pittsburgh and went through the whole scanning procedure which has so much incredible technology, so software and hardware going on. But it is a lengthy process. So what's your vision for the future of this in terms of making this more accessible to people?
也许我可以详细说明一下，所以我去了匹兹堡，并经历了整个扫描程序，那里有很多令人难以置信的技术，软件和硬件都在运行。但是这是一个冗长的过程。那么，对于未来如何使这更容易为人们所使用，你有什么愿景？
You know, it starts off with a small number of people doing these very detailed scans, right? Which is, that's the version that you did and that I did. And, you know, before there are a lot of people who who we've done this kind of a scan for, we probably need to kind of over collect expressions when we're doing this scanning because we haven't figured out how much we can reduce that down to a really streamlined process and extrapolate from the scans that have already been done. But the goal, and we have a project that's working on this already, is just to do a very quick scan with your cell phone where you just take your phone, kind of wave it in front of your face for a couple of minutes, you know, say a few sentences, make a bunch of expressions. But overall, have the whole process just be two to three minutes and then produce something that's of the quality of what we have right now. So I think that that's one of the big challenges that remains.
你知道吗，最开始只有少数人进行这些非常详细的扫描，对吧？就是你和我做的版本。而且，在我们为很多人做这种扫描之前，我们可能需要收集更多的表情样本，因为我们还没有确定能够将其简化为一个高效的流程，并从已有的扫描结果中推导出新的数据。但我们已经在进行这方面的项目，目标是使用手机进行快速扫描，只需拿起手机，在你的脸前晃几分钟，说几句话，做几个表情。整个过程只需两到三分钟，然后产生与我们现在拥有的质量相当的结果。所以我认为这仍然是一个重大挑战。
And right now we have the ability to do the scans if you, you know, have the hours to sit for one. And with today's technology, I mean, you're using a meta headset that exists, it's a product that's kind of for sale now, you can drive these with that. But the production of these scans in a very efficient way is one of the last pieces that we still need to really nail. And then obviously there's all the experiences around it.
现在我们有能力进行扫描，只要你有时间坐下来。而且，随着今天的技术发展，我是说，你正在使用的元头盔已经问世了，这是一种现在可以购买的产品，你可以使用它来进行这些扫描。但是，以非常高效的方式生成这些扫描图像仍然是我们需要最后攻克的一项问题。然后当然还有围绕它的各种体验。
I mean, right now we're kind of sitting in a dark room, which, you know, is familiar for your podcast. But I think part of the vision for this over time is, is, you know, not just having this be like a video call. I mean, that's fine. It's, it's cool. Or it feels like it's immersive. But, you know, you can do a video call on your phone. The thing that you can do in the metaverse that is different from what you can do on a phone is like doing stuff where you're physically there together and participating in things together. And we could play games like this. We could have meetings like this in the future. Once you mix, once you get mixed reality and augmented reality, we could have codec avatars like this and go into a meeting and have some people physically there and have some people show up in this photorealistic form superimposed on the on the physical environment. I think that stuff like that is going to be super powerful. So we got to still build out all those kind of applications and the use cases around it. But I don't know, I think it's going to be a pretty wild next few years around this.
我是说，现在我们有点坐在一个黑暗的房间里，你知道的，这是你的播客熟悉的环境。但我认为随着时间的推移，对于这个概念的一部分愿景就是，你知道，不仅仅让它成为像视频通话那样的东西。我的意思是，视频通话也可以啊，很好，很酷，或者感觉很沉浸。但是，你可以在手机上进行视频通话。在元宇宙中可以做到的与手机上不同的事情是，你可以一起进行实际参与和互动的活动。我们可以玩类似这样的游戏。我们将来可以这样开会。一旦混合现实和增强现实结合起来，我们可以拥有像这样的编解码头像，进入一个会议，有些人可以在那里，还有些人可以以这种逼真的形式出现在物理环境上。我认为这样的东西将会非常强大。所以我们仍然需要开发所有这些应用程序和相关使用场景。但是，我不知道，我觉得在这方面未来的几年将会非常精彩。
I mean, I just, I'm actually almost at a loss of words. This is just so incredible. This is truly incredible. I hope that people like watching this can get a glimpse of like how incredible it is. It really feels like we're in the same room. Like there is that I guess there's an uncanny valley that seems to have been crossed here. Like it looks like you.
我的意思是，我只是，实际上我几乎找不到话来形容。这太不可思议了。真是令人难以置信。我希望像观看这个视频的人们能够略微体会到这种令人难以置信的感觉。真的感觉就像我们在同一个房间里。就好像穿越了一个奇异谷，看起来就像是你本人。
Yeah, I mean, I think there's still a bunch of tuning that I think we'll want to do where different people emote to different extents. Right. So I think one of the big questions is, you know, like when you smile, how wide is your smile and how wide do you want your smile to be? And I think getting that to be tuned on a per person basis is going to be one of the things that we're going to need to figure out. You know, it's like, to what extent do you want to give people control over that? You know, some people might try to, you know, might prefer a version of themselves that's more emotive in their avatar than their actual faces. You know, so for example, you know, I always get a lot of critique and shit for having like a relatively stiff expression. But you know, I mean, I might feel pretty happy, but just make a pretty small smile. So, I mean, maybe, you know, for me, it's actually, you know, it's like I'd want to have my avatar really be able to better express like how I'm feeling than what then how I can do physically. So I think there's a question about how you want to tune that.
是的，我的意思是，我认为还有很多调整需要做，不同的人表达情感的程度是不一样的。对的。所以我认为其中一个重要的问题是，你知道，当你微笑时，你的微笑有多宽，你希望你的微笑有多宽？我认为在每个人的基础上调整这个是我们需要弄清楚的事情之一。你知道，你想让人们对此有多大的控制权？你知道，有些人可能更喜欢他们的角色在虚拟形象中比他们真实的面部表情更富有表现力。例如，我经常因为表情相对僵硬而受到很多批评和指责。但你知道，我可能感觉很开心，只是微笑得很小。所以，对我来说，也许，你知道，我实际上想让我的角色在表达我的感受方面比我在现实中身体上能够做到的更好。所以我认为在这方面你要考虑如何进行调整。
But overall, yeah, I mean, we want to start from the baseline of capturing how people actually emote and express themselves. And I think the initial version of this is has been pretty impressive. And like you said, I do think we're kind of beyond the uncanny valley here where it does feel like you, it doesn't feel weird or anything like that.
总的来说，是的，我是说，我们希望从捕捉人们实际的情感和表达方式的基线开始。而且我认为这个初步版本已经相当令人印象深刻。而且就像你说的，我确实认为我们已经超越了不真实谷，在这里使用起来感觉就像你自己，不会感到奇怪或其他什么的。
I mean, that's going to be the meme that the two most monotone people are in a metaverse together. But I think that actually makes it more difficult. Like the amazing thing here is that the subtleties of the expression of the eyes, you know, people say I'm monotone and emotional is, but I'm not it's just this, maybe my expression of emotion is more subtle, usually like with the eyes. And that's one of the things I've noticed is just how expressive the subtle movement of the corners of the eyes are in terms of displaying happiness or boredom or all that kind of stuff.
我的意思是，这将成为两个最单调的人在元宇宙中一起出现的一个梗。但我认为这实际上会让事情变得更加困难。就在这里，令人惊叹的是眼神的微妙表达，你知道，人们说我是单调和情感不丰富，但事实并非如此，只是我的情感表达更加微妙，通常是通过眼睛表现出来。这是我注意到的其中一件事，眼角微小的运动在展示快乐、无聊或其他情感方面是多么富有表现力。
I am curious to see, just I've never done one of these before, I've never done a podcast as one of these codec avatars. I'm curious to see what people think of it because, you know, one of the issues that we've had in some of the VR and mixed reality work is it tends to feel a lot more profound when you're in it than the 2D videos capturing the experience. So I think that this one, because it's photorealistic, may look kind of as amazing in 2D for people watching it as it feels, I think, to be in it.
我很好奇，只是我之前从未做过这种事情，从未像这种编解码的角色一样做过播客。我很想知道人们对它的看法，因为你知道，在某些虚拟现实和混合现实工作中，当你亲身体验时，它往往比记录体验的2D视频更深刻。因此，我认为，由于这个是逼真的，对于观看的人来说，它在2D的表现可能看起来跟它给我带来的感受一样惊人。
But we've certainly had this issue where a lot of the other things, just it's like you feel this sense of immersion when you're in it that doesn't quite translate to a 2D screen. But I don't know, I'm curious to see what people think.
但是我们确实遇到了一个问题，其他很多事情就像是你在其中时会感到一种沉浸感，而这种感觉在二维屏幕上无法完全传达出来。但是我不知道，我很好奇看看大家是怎么想的。
Yeah, I'm curious to see people could see that like my heart is actually beating fast now. This is super interesting, like the such intimacy of conversation can be achieved remotely. There's been, you know, I don't do remote podcasts for this reason. And this is like breaks all of that. This feels like just an incredible transition to something else, to the different kind of communication breaks all barriers, like geographic physical barriers.
是的，我很好奇看看人们是否能够感受到我的心脏现在真的在快速跳动。这真的很有趣，就像能够通过远程交流实现这种亲密的对话。以前因为这个原因我从不做远程播客。但这次的情况完全打破了这一切。这感觉就像是进入了一种令人难以置信的转变，一种不同的沟通方式，能够突破地理和物理的障碍。
You mentioned, do you have a sense of timeline in terms of how many difficult things have to be solved to make this more accessible, like scanning with a smartphone?
你提到了，是否可以给出一个时间范围，大约需要解决多少困难的问题，才能使这项技术更加易用，比如通过智能手机进行扫描？
Yeah, I mean, I think we'll probably roll this out progressively over time. So it's not going to be like we rolled out one day, everyone has a codec avatar. We want to get more people scanned and into the system. And then we want to start integrating it into each one of our apps, right, making it so that, you know, I think that for a lot of the work style things, productivity, I think that this is going to make a ton of sense. And a lot of game environments, I mean, this could be fine, but games tend to have their own style, right, where you almost want to fit more with the aesthetic style of the game.
是的，我的意思是，我认为我们可能会逐步推行这个项目。所以不会像是某一天推出了，每个人都有一个编解码器化身。我们希望能够扫描更多的人并加入系统。然后，我们想要开始将其整合到我们每一个应用程序中，确保对于很多工作场景和提高生产力而言，这是非常有意义的。而对于很多游戏环境来说，这样也许可以，但是游戏往往有自己的风格，你可能更希望更符合游戏的审美风格。
But I think for doing meetings, then one of the things that we get a lot of feedback on workrooms, where people are pretty blown away by the experience and this feeling that you can like be remote, but feel like you're physically there around a table with people. But then, you know, we get some feedback that people have a hard time with the fact that the avatars are so expressive and don't feel as realistic in that environment. So I think something like this could make a very big difference for those remote meetings.
但是，我认为对于开会来说，我们得到了很多关于工作室的反馈，人们对于这种体验感到非常惊讶，他们可以远程参与，但感觉像是真实地坐在桌子旁与人交流。但是，我们也收到一些反馈，人们在这种环境中很难接受角色扮演的表情，并且觉得不够真实。所以我认为，类似的技术可以在远程会议中产生非常大的影响。
And especially with Quest 3 coming out, which is going to be the first mainstream mixed reality product, right, where you're really taking digital, you know, expressions of either a person or objects and overlaying them on the physical world. I think the ability to do kind of remote meetings and things like that, where you're just remote hang sessions with friends. I mean, I think that's going to be very exciting.
特别是随着Quest 3的推出，这将是第一个主流混合现实产品，对吧，可以将数字化的人物或物体的表达与现实世界相叠加。我认为能够进行远程会议等活动，与朋友进行远程休闲活动，这将非常令人兴奋。
So yeah, rolling it out over the next few years, it's not ready to be like a kind of mainstream product yet. But we just want to keep tuning and keep getting more scans in there and keep, you know, and kind of rolling it out into more of the features. But yeah, I mean, definitely in the next few years, you'll be seeing a bunch more experiences like this.
所以，我们计划在接下来的几年内推出该产品，但它尚未准备好成为一种主流产品。但是我们希望不断改进并增加更多的扫描功能，并逐步推出更多的功能。在接下来的几年里，你肯定会看到更多类似的体验。
Yeah, I would love to see some celebrities scanned and some non celebrities. I just just more people to experience this. I would love to see that. This is something that I mean, on my mind is, but I'm literally at a loss of words because it's very difficult to just convey how incredible this is, how like, how I feel the emotion, how I feel the presence, how I feel like the subtleties of the emotion in terms of like work meetings or any kind of in terms of podcasts. This is like, this is awesome.
是的，我非常想看到一些名人和一些非名人被扫描。我希望更多的人能够体验到这个。我很愿意看到这个。这是一件在我心中存在的事情，但我真的难以用言语来表达这种令人难以置信的感觉，以及我对情感、存在和微妙情绪的感受，无论是在工作会议还是任何类型的播客中。这太棒了。
I don't even need your arms or legs. Is that we got to get that? I mean, that's that's its own challenge. And part of the question is also, so you have the scan, then it takes a certain amount of compute to go drive that both for the sensors on the headset and then rendering it. So one of the things that we're working through is what is the level of fidelity that is optimal, right? You could do the full body in kind of a codec and that can be quite intensive. But one of the things that we're thinking about is like, all right, maybe you can kind of stitch a somewhat lower fidelity version of your body, but still have the main kind of the major movements. But your face is really the thing that we have the most resolution on, right? In terms of being able to read and express emotions.
我甚至不需要你的手臂或腿。那就是我们需要达到的目标吗？我的意思是，那是一个独立的挑战。而且问题的一部分也是，你需要进行一定计算量的驱动，用于头戴式设备上的传感器，以及渲染。所以我们正在处理的其中一件事情是，什么样的保真度是最佳的？你可以使用一种编码技术来呈现全身，但这可能会相当耗费资源。但我们正在思考的一个点是，也许你可以制作一个相对低保真度的身体版本，但仍然包含主要的动作。但你的脸是我们分辨率最高的部分，对于能够读取和表达情感来说。
I mean, like you said, if you move your eyebrows like a millimeter, I mean, that really changes the expression and what you're you're emoting, whereas, you know, I mean, moving your your arm like an inch probably doesn't matter quite as much. So so yeah, so I think that we'll we do want to get all of that into here and that'll be some of the work over the next period as well.
我是说，就像你说的，如果你眉毛动了一毫米，这真的会改变表情和你所表达的情感，而，你知道，我是说，移动手臂一英寸可能没有那么重要。所以，是的，我认为我们确实想把这些都加入其中，这也将是接下来一段时间的工作内容之一。
So you mentioned Quest 3, that's coming out. I've gotten a chance to try that too. That's awesome. So the how do you pull off the mix? So it's not just virtual reality, it's mixed reality.
所以你提到了即将推出的Quest 3，我也有机会尝试过了，太棒了。那么，你是如何实现这种混合体验的呢？这不仅仅是虚拟现实，还有混合现实。
Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be it's going to be the first mainstream mixed reality device. I mean, obviously we shipped Quest Pro last year, but it was $1,500. And part of what I'm super proud of is, you know, we try to innovate not just on pushing the state of the art and delivering new capabilities, but making it so it can be available to everyone. And, you know, we have this and it's coming out. It's $500. And in some ways, I think the mixed reality is actually better in Quest 3 than it was than what we're using right now in Quest Pro. So I'm really proud of the team for being able to deliver that kind of an innovation and get it out. But you know, some of this is just software you tune over time and get to be better. Part of it is you put together a product and you figure out what are the bottlenecks in terms of making it a good experience.
是啊，我的意思是，我认为这将是第一款主流混合现实设备。当然，去年我们已经推出了Quest Pro，但价格为1500美元。而我非常自豪的部分是，我们不仅致力于推动技术的革新和提供新的功能，而且还致力于让它们可供每个人使用。现在我们有了这款新产品，售价为500美元。在某种程度上，我认为Quest 3的混合现实功能实际上比Quest Pro的更好。所以我非常自豪团队能够交付这样一种创新并将其推向市场。但你知道的，有些问题只是需要随着时间进行软件调整进一步改进。另一部分是我们需要将产品的各个方面整合起来，找出使用户体验更良好的瓶颈所在。
So we got the resolution for the mixed reality cameras and sensors to be multiple times better in Quest 3. And we just figured that that made a very big difference when we saw the experience that we were able to put together for Quest Pro. And part of it is also that Qualcomm just came out with their next generation chipset for VR and MR that we worked with them on a kind of custom version of it. But that was available this year for Quest 3. And it wasn't available in Quest Pro. So, you know, in a way, in Quest 3, even though it's not the Pro product, actually has a stronger chipset in it than the Pro line at a third of the cost. So I'm really excited to get this in people's hands. It does all the VR stuff that Quest 2 and the others have done too. It does it better because the display is better and the chip is better. So you'll get better graphics. It's 40% thinner. So it's so just more comfortable as well. But the MR is really the big capability shift. And I'm part of what's exciting about the whole space right now is, you know, this isn't like smartphones where, you know, companies put out a new smartphone every year and you can almost barely tell the difference between that and the one the year before it. Now, for this, each time we put out a new headset, it has a major new capability. And the big one now is mixed reality. The ability to basically take digital representations of people or objects and superimpose them on the world.
因此，我们在Quest 3的混合现实摄像头和传感器的分辨率上获得了数倍的改进。当我们看到我们为Quest Pro打造的体验时，我们意识到这带来了非常大的差异。其中的一部分原因是高通刚刚发布了他们下一代的VR和MR芯片组，我们与他们合作定制了一个版本。但这一版本今年只在Quest 3上可用，而在Quest Pro上不可用。所以，你知道，在某种程度上，尽管Quest 3不是专业产品，但它实际上比Pro系列中的芯片组更强大，价格只是Pro系列的三分之一。所以我非常兴奋能把这个产品交到大家手中。它能够完成Quest 2和其他设备所能做到的所有VR功能，但由于显示器和芯片的改进，它做得更好。所以你将获得更好的图形效果。它还薄了40％，所以更加舒适。但是MR真的是重大的能力转变。现在整个领域激动人心的一部分是，这不像智能手机，公司每年都推出新的智能手机，你几乎几乎看不出与前一年的有什么区别。现在，每次我们推出新的头戴设备，都会带来重大的新功能。而现在的重大功能就是混合现实。基本上就是把人或物体的数字化表示与现实世界叠加在一起。
And basically, you know, I mean, there's a one version of this is you're going to kind of have these augments or holograms and experiences that you can kind of bring into your living room or meeting space or office. Another thing that I just think is going to be a much kind of simpler innovation is that there are a lot of VR experiences today that don't need to be fully immersive. And, you know, if you're playing a shooter game or you're doing a fitness experience, sometimes people get worried about swinging their arms around. Like, am I going to hit a lamp or something? You know, it's and am I going to run into something? So having that in mixed reality actually is just a lot more comfortable for people, right? You kind of still get the immersion and 3D experience. And you can you can have an experience that just wouldn't be possible in the physical world alone. But by being anchored to and being able to see the physical world around you, it's like, it just feels so much safer and more secure. And I think a lot of people are really going to enjoy that too.
基本上，你知道，我的意思是，有一种版本是你可以将这些增强和全息以及体验带到你的客厅、会议空间或办公室。另一个我认为将是一种更简单的创新的方式是，现在有很多VR体验并不需要完全沉浸其中。你知道，如果你正在玩射击游戏或者做健身体验，有时人们会担心挥动手臂，会不会撞到灯，或者撞上什么东西？所以，在混合现实中，对于人们来说更加舒适。你依然可以获得沉浸感和3D体验，而且你可以有一种在现实世界中根本无法实现的体验。但是通过锚定和能够看到你周围的现实世界，这样做会让人感到更加安全和放心。我认为很多人也会非常喜欢这一点。
So yeah, I'm really excited to see how people use it. But yeah, Quest 3 coming out later this fall. Yeah, and I got to experience it with other people sitting around and there's a lot of furniture. And so you get to see that furniture and get to see those people and get to see those people like enjoy the ridiculousness of you like swinging your arms. I mean, presumably they're friends of yours, even if they make fun of you, they, there's a lot of love behind that. And that you got to experience that. So that's a really fundamentally different experience than just pure VR with like with zombies coming out of walls.
嗯，我真的很兴奋看到人们如何使用它。但是，Quest 3将在今年秋天发布。嗯，我有机会与其他人一起体验它，周围有很多家具。因此，你可以看到那些家具，看到那些人，还可以看到那些人享受你挥动手臂的荒谬之处。我是说，尽管他们可能取笑你，但他们的背后充满了爱。你有机会体验到这一点。所以，这是与只有僵尸从墙上出来的纯VR体验 fundamentally 不同的体验。
And yeah, it's like someone shooting at you and you hide behind your real couch in order to duck the fire. Yeah, it's incredible how it's all integrated, but also like subtle stuff like in a room with no windows, you can add windows to it. And you can look outside as the zombies run towards you, but like it's still nice view outside. Yeah, it's really. And so that's pulled off by having cameras on the outside of the headset that do the pass through that technology is incredible to do that on a headset. And it's not just the cameras, you basically need to, you need multiple cameras to capture the different angles and sort of the three dimensional space. And then it's a pretty complex compute problem and AI problem to map that to your perspective, right? Because the cameras aren't exactly where your eyes are, because no two people's eyes are, you're not going to be in exactly the same place. You kind of need to, to get that to, to, to line up. And then do that basically in real time, and then generate something that looks that kind of feels natural. And then superimposed whatever digital objects you want to put there. So it's, yeah, it's a very interesting technical challenge. And I think we'll continue tuning this for for the years to come as well.
是的，就像有人向你射击，你躲在真正的沙发后面躲避火力。是的，这一切的整合都很不可思议，还有一些细微的东西，比如在没有窗户的房间里，你可以添加窗户。你可以朝外看，看着僵尸向你跑来，外面的景色很漂亮。是的，真的很漂亮。这是通过在头盔外部安装摄像头来实现的，这种技术在头盔上实现起来非常不可思议。而且不仅仅是摄像头，你基本上需要多个摄像头来捕捉不同角度和三维空间。然后，这是一个相当复杂的计算问题和人工智能问题，需要将它映射到你的视角上。因为摄像头并不恰好位于你的眼睛所在的位置，因为每个人的眼睛位置都不一样。你需要让它们对齐。然后在实时情况下完成这一切，生成出看起来自然的东西。然后叠加上你想要放置的任何数字物体。所以，这是一个非常有趣的技术挑战。我认为我们在今后的几年中将继续调整它。
But but I'm pretty excited to, to get this out, because I think Quest three is going to be the first device like this with that millions of people are going to get that's mixed reality. And it's only when you have millions of people using something that you start getting the whole developer community really starting to experiment and build stuff, because now there are going to be people who actually use it. So I think we'll get, you know, we got some of that flywheel going with Quest Pro, but I think it'll really get accelerated once Quest three gets out there. So yeah, I'm pretty excited about this one. Plus there's hand tracking without, so you don't need to have a control.
但但是我非常激动，因为我认为Quest 3将是第一款像这样的设备，数百万人将会获得混合现实体验。只有当数百万人开始使用某样东西时，整个开发者社区才会真正开始尝试和构建东西，因为现在将会有人实际使用它。所以我认为我们已经在Quest Pro上取得了一些进步，但是一旦Quest 3推出，这个过程将会加速。所以，是的，我对这个非常兴奋。而且它还有手部追踪功能，所以你不需要使用控制器。
So this camera, the cameras aren't just doing the pass through of the entire physical reality around you. It's also tracking the details of your hands in order to use that for like gesture recognition, this kind of stuff. Yeah, we've been able to get way further on hand recognition in a shorter period of time than I expected. So that's been pretty cool. I don't know. Did you see the demo experience that we built around, you know, like, yeah, the piano learning to play piano? Yeah, it's incredible. You're basically playing piano on a table, and it's that's without any controller. And like how well it matches physical reality with no latency. And it's tracking your hands with no latency, and it's tracking all the people around you with no latency, integrating physical reality and digital reality. Obviously that connects exactly to this Kodak avatar, which is in parallel, allows us to have ultra realistic copies of ourselves in this mixed reality. So it's all converging towards like an incredible digital experience in the metaverse.
所以这个相机，不仅可以通过穿透你周围的整个现实世界。它还可以跟踪你手部的细节，以便用于手势识别等方面。是的，在更短的时间内，我们已经能够对手部识别取得比我预期的更大进展。所以这非常酷。你看到我们围绕钢琴学习如何弹钢琴的演示体验了吗？是的，真是令人难以置信。你可以在桌子上弹钢琴，完全不需要控制器。而且它能够与现实世界完美匹配，没有延迟。它能够实时跟踪你的手，实时跟踪周围的所有人，将现实世界和数字世界融合在一起。显然，这与我们所说的虚拟人形象完全吻合，虚拟人形象可以让我们在混合现实中拥有超级逼真的自我复制。所以所有的一切都朝着在元宇宙中创造出令人难以置信的数字体验而收敛。
To me, obviously, I love the intimacy of conversation. So even this is awesome. But do you have other ideas of what this unlocks of like something like Kodak avatar unlocks in terms of applications, in terms of things we were able to do?
对我来说，很明显，我喜欢交谈的亲密感。所以，即使这个也很棒。但是，你有什么其他关于这个能够解锁的想法吗？比如，Kodak avatar解锁了哪些应用程序，我们能够做些什么？
Well, there's what you can do with avatars overall, in terms of superimposing digital objects on the physical world. And then there's kind of psychologically what does having photorealistic do?
好吧，就总体而言，你可以用头像在现实世界中添加数字物体。而从心理上来说，拥有逼真的头像会带来什么影响呢？
So I think we're moving towards a world where we're going to have something that looks like normal glasses, where you can just see the physical world, but you will see holograms. And in that world, I think that they're going to be not too far off, maybe by the end of this decade, we'll be living in a world where there are kind of as many holograms when you walk into a room as there are physical objects.
我认为我们正在朝着一个世界的方向发展，那里我们将拥有看起来像普通眼镜一样的东西，你可以只看到现实世界，但你也能看到全息影像。在这个世界里，我认为它们离我们并不遥远，也许在本十年结束时，我们会生活在一个房间里有像现实物体一样多的全息影像的世界中。
And it really raises this interesting question about what are about a lot of people have this phrase where they call the physical world the real world. And I kind of think increasingly, the physical world is super important, but I actually think the real world is the combination of the physical world and the digital world's coming together. But until this technology, they were sort of separate, right?
这段话着实引发了一个有趣的问题，即有很多人都将物质世界称为真实世界。而我越来越觉得，物质世界非常重要，但我实际上认为真实世界是物质世界与数字世界的结合。然而，在这项技术出现之前，这两个世界是分离的，对吗？
It's like you access the digital world through a screen, right? And maybe it's a small screen that you carry around, or it's a bigger screen where you sit down at your desk and strap in for a long session. But they're kind of fundamentally divorced and disconnected. And I think part of what this technology is going to do is bring those together into a single coherent experience of what the modern real world is, which is it's got to be physical because we're physical beings. So the physical world is always going to be super important.
就像你通过屏幕进入数字世界一样，对吧？也许是一个你随身携带的小屏幕，或者是一个你坐在桌前并投入长时间的大屏幕。但它们在根本上是分离和断开的。我认为这项技术将会把它们融合成一个统一的、完整的现代现实世界体验，因为现实世界必须是物理的，因为我们是物质存在。所以物理世界总是非常重要的。
But increasingly, I think a lot of the things that we kind of think of can be digital holograms. I mean, any screen that you have can be a hologram, in any media, in any book, art, it can basically be just as effective as a hologram as a physical object, any game that you're playing a board game or any kind of physical game cards, ping-pong, things like that. They're often a lot better as holograms because you could just kind of snap your fingers and instantiate them and have them show up. You know, it's like you have a ping-pong table show up in your living room, but then you can snap your fingers and have it be gone. So, maybe that's super powerful.
越来越多的事物，我认为我们所想的很多东西都可以是数字全息图。我的意思是，任何你拥有的屏幕都可以成为一个全息图，在任何媒体，任何书籍、艺术作品中，它基本上可以像实体物体一样有效地成为一个全息图，无论是在你玩棋盘游戏或其他任何物理游戏中，如乒乓球等，它们往往作为全息图更好，因为你可以轻轻一点手指，即可生成它们并使其呈现。你知道，就像你的起居室里出现了一个乒乓球桌，然后你可以轻轻一点手指就让它消失。所以，也许这是非常强大的。
So I think that it's actually an amazing thought experiment of like how many physical things we have today that could actually be better as interactive holograms. But then beyond that, I think the most important thing, obviously, is people. So the ability to have these mixed hangouts, whether they're social or meetings where you show up to a conference room, you're wearing glasses or a headset in the very near term, but hopefully by over the next five years, glasses or so. And you're there physically. Some people are there physically, but other people are just there as holograms and it feels like it's them who are right there.
所以我认为这实际上是一个了不起的思想实验，考虑我们今天有多少物理事物实际上在作为互动全息影像出现会更好。但是除此之外，我认为最重要的是人。有能力通过混合聚会，不管是社交还是开会，你到达一个会议室，戴着眼镜或者头戴式设备，近期来说，但希望在未来五年内，或者更快眼镜或类似的设备出现。你在那里亲自出席，有些人真的在那里，但其他人只是以全息影像出现，感觉就像他们就在那里一样。
And also, by the way, another thing that I think is going to be fascinating about being able to blend together the digital and physical worlds in this way is we're also going to be able to embody AIs as well. So I think you'll also have meetings in the future where you're basically, maybe you're sitting there physically and then you have a couple of other people who are there as holograms and then you have like Bob the AI who's an engineer on your team who's helping with things and he can now be embodied as a realistic avatar as well and just join the meeting in that way. So I think that that's going to be pretty compelling as well.
而且，顺便说一下，我觉得能够将数字世界和物理世界以这种方式融合在一起的另一件令人着迷的事情是，我们还将能够将人工智能具象化。因此，我认为未来你也可能参加这样的会议，你可能会坐在那里，并与其他几个人作为全息图形存在，而你的团队中的工程师鲍勃可以作为一个真实的化身加入会议，并帮助处理事务。所以我认为这也会非常引人注目。
So then, okay, so what can you do with photorealistic avatars compared to kind of the more expressive ones that we have today? Well, I think a lot of this actually comes down to acceptance of the technology. And because all the stuff that we're doing, I mean, the motion of your eyebrows, the motion of your eyes, the cheeks and all of that, there's actually no reason why you couldn't do that on an expressive avatar too.
那么，好吧，相较于我们今天所拥有的更具表达性的头像，你可以用逼真的头像做些什么呢？嗯，我认为这主要取决于对这项技术的接受度。因为我们所做的所有事情，比如眉毛的运动、眼睛的运动、脸颊等等，实际上在具有表达力的头像上也是可以实现的，没有任何理由不能这样做。
I mean, it wouldn't look exactly like you, but you can make a cartoon version of yourself and still have it be almost as expressive. But I do think that there's this bridge between the current state of most our interactions in the physical world and where we're getting in the future with this kind of hybrid physical and digital world where I think it's going to be a lot easier for people to kind of take some of these experiences seriously with the photorealistic avatars to start. And then I'm actually really curious to see where it goes longer term.
我的意思是，它不会完全像你，但你可以制作一个卡通版本的自己，仍然能够表达出几乎一样的感受。但我认为，在现实世界的大部分互动方式与未来的混合物理和数字世界之间存在这样一个桥梁，人们将更容易认真对待一些以逼真的头像开始的体验。我真的很好奇它长期的发展方向。
I could see a world where people stick to the photorealistic and maybe they modify them to make them a little bit more interesting, but maybe fundamentally we like photorealistic things. But I can also see a world that once people get used to the photorealistic avatars and they get used to these experiences, I actually think that there could be a world where people actually prefer being able to express themselves in kind of non ways that aren't so tied to their physical reality.
我可以看到一个世界，在那里人们坚持以逼真照片为基础，并可能对其进行一些修改使其更加有趣，但从根本上说，我们可能喜欢逼真的事物。但我也能看到另一个世界，在这个世界中，一旦人们习惯了逼真的虚拟形象，并适应了这些体验，我实际上认为可能会有一种人们更喜欢以非与现实世界紧密联系的方式表达自己的世界。
And so that's one of the things that I'm really curious about. And I don't know, in a bunch of our internal experiments on this, one of the things that has, I thought was psychologically pretty interesting is people have no issues blending photorealistic stuff and not. So we can have a, you know, for this specific scene that we're in now, we happen to sort of being in a dark room. I think part of that aesthetic decision, I think was based on the way you like to do your podcast. But we've done experiences like this where you have like a cartoony background, but photorealistic people who you're talking to. And we seem to, like people just seem to just think that that is completely normal, right? It doesn't bother you. It doesn't feel like it's weird. Another thing that we've experienced with is basically you have a photorealistic avatar that you're talking to. And then right next to them, you have an expressive kind of cartoon avatar. And that actually is pretty normal too. Right? It's like, it's not that weird, right? To basically being interacting with different people in different modes like that.
所以这是我非常好奇的事情之一。在我们进行的一些内部实验中，有一件事我认为在心理上非常有趣，就是人们对逼真和非逼真的融合没有问题。例如，对于我们现在所处的这个特定场景，我们碰巧是在一个黑暗的房间里。我认为这部分美学决策是基于您制作播客的方式。但我们做过像这样的体验，背景是卡通风格，但您与之交谈的人却是逼真的。人们似乎认为这完全正常，不会困扰他们，也不觉得奇怪。另一种我们经历过的情况是，您与一个逼真的虚拟人物进行交谈，而他们的旁边是一个富有表情的卡通形象。这也是相当正常的，对吧？与不同模式下的不同人物进行互动并不奇怪。
So I'm not sure. I think it'll be an interesting question to what extent these photorealistic avatars are like a key part of just transitioning from being comfortable in the physical world to this kind of new, modern real world that that kind of includes both the digital and physical, or if this is like the long term way that it stays. That's that's a, I think that they're going to be useless for both the expressive and the photorealistic over time. I just don't know what the balance is going to be.
所以，我不确定。我认为这将是一个有趣的问题，能够评估这些逼真的头像在多大程度上能够帮助我们从身处实体世界逐渐适应这种新的、包含数字和物理元素的现代真实世界，或者这将成为长期的发展方向。我认为随着时间的推移，无论是表达性还是逼真度，这些头像都会变得无用。我只是不知道能够达到怎样的平衡点。
Yeah, it's a really good, interesting philosophical question. But to me in the short term, the photorealistic is amazing to what I would prefer, like you said, the work room, but like on a beach with a beer, just to see a buddy of mine remotely on a chair next to me drinking a beer. I mean, that as realistic as possible is an incredible experience. So I don't want any fake hats on him. I don't want any just chilling with it with a friend, drinking beer, looking at the ocean, while not being in the same place together. I mean that, that experience is just, it's a fundamentally, it's just a high quality experience, a friendship, whatever we see in friendship, it seems to be present there in the same kind of realism I'm seeing right now. This is totally a game changer. So to me, this is, I can see myself sticking with this for a long time.
是的，这是一个非常好的、有趣的哲学问题。但对我来说，就目前而言，逼真的画面是我首选的，就像你说的，办公室，但是在海滩上喝着啤酒，远程看见我一个朋友坐在我旁边喝啤酒，这种尽可能逼真的体验简直太棒了。所以我不希望他带上任何假帽子。我只是希望和朋友一起放松，喝着啤酒，看着大海，虽然我们不在同一个地方。我的意思是，这种体验，无论从友谊的角度看，从各种友谊中我所看到的都能在目前的逼真体验中找到。这绝对是一个革命性的改变。所以对我来说，我可以看到自己长时间使用这个产品。
Yeah, and I mean, it's also, it's novel, and it's also a technological feat, right? It's like being able to pull this off is like, it's a, it's like a pretty impressive, and I think to some degree, it's just this kind of like awesome experience. But I'm already sorry to interrupt. I'm already forgetting that you're not real. Like this really, so novel. It's just an average version of me. It's a deep philosophical question. Yes.
是的，我的意思是，它也是一种创新，并且也是一项技术壮举，对吧？就像能够做到这一点一样，这真是一个相当令人印象深刻的事情，我认为在某种程度上，它就是一种令人惊叹的体验。但是很抱歉打断你了，我已经开始忘记你不是真实的了。这真是太新奇了，它只是我自己的一个普通版本。这是一个深层次的哲学问题。是的。
But I mean, but here's some of the, so I put this on this morning and I was like, all right, like, it's like, okay, so this, my hair is a little shorter in this than my physical hair is right now. I probably need to go get a haircut. And like, and I actually, I did happen to shave this morning, but, but if I hadn't, you know, I could still have this photorealistic avatar that is, that is more cleanly shaven, right? Even if I'm, you know, a few days in, physically. So I do think that they're going to start to be these subtle questions that seep in where the, the avatar is realistic in the sense of this is kind of what you looked like at the time of capture, but it's not necessarily temporarily accurate to exactly what you look like in this moment. And I think that they're going to end up being a bunch of questions that come from that over time that I think are going to be fascinating too.
我的意思是，这里有一些东西，所以我今天早上戴上它，然后我就想，好吧，这是，好吧，好的，所以这个，我的头发在这个里面比我现在的真实头发要短一些。我可能需要去理个发。而且，实际上，我今天早上确实剃过脸，但是，但是，如果我没有剃，你知道的，我仍然可以有这个更整洁剃须的逼真化身，即使我身体上已经有几天的胡须了。所以我认为，随着时间的推移，会涌现出这些微妙的问题，即角色扮演者的形象在捕捉时比较真实，但并不一定准确地反映出此时此刻你的真实外貌。我认为从此会产生一系列有趣的问题。
You mean just like the nature of identity of who we are? Are we the people, you know, how people do like, like summer beach body with people be for the scan, they'll try to lose some way and look their best and sexiest with the nice hair and everything like that. I mean, it does, it does raise the question of, you know, if a lot of people interacting with the digital version of ourselves, who are we really? Are we the entity driving the avatar or are we the avatar?
你的意思是我们的身份特性，也就是我们是谁的本质？我们是那些人，你知道的，那些会像夏日海滩身材一样努力控制体重，尽力打扮得最好看最性感的那些人吗，同时还有漂亮的头发之类的。这实际上引发了一个问题，就是如果很多人与我们的数字化版本互动，我们到底是谁？我们是驱动这个虚拟身体的实体，还是我们就是这个虚拟身体本身？
Well, I mean, I think our physical body is also fluctuating change over time too. So I think there's a similar question of like, which version of that are we, right? There's, there's like the, I mean, it's an interesting identity question because all right, it's like, I don't know, it's like weight fluctuates or things like that. It's like, I think most people don't tend to think of themselves as the, well, I don't know, it's an interesting psychological question. Some, maybe some people, maybe a lot of people do think about themselves as the kind of worst version. But, you know, but I think a lot of people probably think about themselves as the best version. And, and then it's like what you are on a day to day basis doesn't necessarily map to to, to either of those.
嗯，我的意思是，我认为我们的身体也会随着时间而发生波动的变化。所以，我觉得有一个类似的问题，那就是我们究竟是哪个版本的自己，对吧？这是一个有趣的身份认同问题，因为，嗯，就像体重会波动一样。我觉得大多数人并不倾向于把自己看作是最糟糕的版本。但是，你知道的，这是一个有趣的心理问题。有些人，也许很多人都认为自己是最好的版本。而且，每天的你并不一定与其中任何一个版本相对应。
I know that's, yeah, there will definitely be a bunch of, a bunch of social scientists and folks will have to, you know, in, in psychologists, really, there's going to be a lot to understand about how our perception of ourselves and others shifted from this. Well, this might be a bit of a complicated and dark question, but one of the first feelings I had experiencing this is I would love to talk to loved ones. And the next question I have is, I would love to talk to people who are no longer here that are loved ones. So like, if you look into the future, is that something you think about, who people pass away, but they can still exist in the metaverse, you can still have, you know, talk to your father, talk to your grandfather and grandmother and a mother once they pass away. The power of that experience is one of the first things my mind jumped to because it's like, this is so real. Yeah, I think that there are a lot of norms and things that people have to figure out around that. There's probably some balance where, you know, if someone has lost a loved one and is grieving, there may be ways in which, you know, being able to interact or relive certain memories could be helpful. But then there's also probably an extent to which it could become unhealthy. And I mean, I'm not an expert in that. So I think we'd have to study that and understand it in more detail.
我知道，是的，肯定会有一群社会科学家和人们必须了解的东西，你知道，在心理学家中，对我们对自己和他人的认知如何发生变化会有很多需要理解的地方。嗯，这可能是一个有点复杂和黑暗的问题，但是我第一次经历这种感觉时，我真想和亲人们交谈。接下来我有一个问题，我很想和已经不在的亲人们交谈。所以，如果你展望未来，你是否考虑过这种情况，人们离世了，但他们仍然可以存在于元宇宙中，你仍然可以和你的父亲、祖父母以及母亲交谈。这种体验的力量是我脑海中第一个跳跃出来的事情，因为它是如此真实。是的，我认为在这方面有很多规范和事情需要人们去摸索。可能有一些平衡点，在某种程度上，如果某个人失去了亲人并且正在悲伤，能够互动或重温某些记忆可能是有帮助的。但同时，它也可能变得不健康。我并不是在这方面的专家，所以我认为我们需要研究并更详细地了解它。
We have, you know, a fair amount of experience with how to handle death and identity and people's digital content through social media already, unfortunately, right, with her, you know, there's, you know, unfortunately, you know, people who use our services die every day, and their families, you know, often want to have access to their profiles. And we have whole protocols that we go through where there are certain parts of it that we try to memorialize. So that way the family can get access to it. So that way the account doesn't just go away immediately. But then there are other things that are, you know, important, kind of private things that that person has. Like we're not going to give the family access to someone's messages, you know, for example. So, so yeah, I think that there's some best practices, I think, from the current digital world that we'll carry over. But yeah, I think that this will enable some different things.
我们在处理死亡、身份和人们的社交媒体数字内容方面已经有相当的经验了，但不幸的是，你知道，有人使用我们的服务每天都会去世，他们的家人经常想要访问他们的个人资料。我们有整套的协议来处理这个问题，其中有一些部分我们会尽力纪念，以便家人能够访问。这样账户就不会立即消失。但是还有一些重要的、个人的东西，我们不会给家人访问，比如说消息。所以，我认为当前数字世界的一些最佳实践将会延续下来。但是，我认为这将会带来一些不同的东西。
Another version of this is, is how this intersects with AIs, right? Because and one of the things that we're really focused on is, you know, we want the world to evolve in a way where there isn't like a single AI super intelligence, but where, you know, a lot of people are empowered by having AI tools to do their jobs and make their lives better.
另一个版本是，就是这与人工智能(AI)的交集，对吗？因为我们真正关注的一点是，我们希望世界能以一种新的方式进化，其中没有像单一的AI超级智能那样，而是让许多人通过拥有AI工具来提升他们的工作和生活质量。
And if you're a creator, right? And if you run a podcast like you do, then you have a big community of people who are super interested to talk to you. I know you'd love to cultivate that community and you interact with them online outside of the podcast as well.
如果你是一个创作者，对吗？如果你像你一样经营一个播客，那么你拥有一大群对与你交谈充满兴趣的人。我知道你喜欢培养这个社群，并且你在播客之外也会在线与他们互动。
But I mean, there's way more demand both to interact with you. And I'm sure you'd love to interact with the community more, but you just are limited by the number of hours in the day. So, you know, at some point, I think making it so that you could build an AI version of yourself that could interact with people, you know, not after you die, but while you're here to help, you know, help people kind of fulfill this desire to interact with you and your desire to build the community. And there's a lot of interesting questions around that.
但是我的意思是，与你互动的需求要多得多。我相信你会喜欢更多地与社区互动，但时间有限。所以，你知道，在某个时候，我认为让你建立一个能够与人互动的人工智能版本，不是在你死后，而是在你还在这里的时候，来帮助人们实现与你互动的愿望，以及你建立社区的愿望。这个问题有很多有趣的方面。
And, you know, that's obviously it's not just in the metaverse. I think, you know, we'd want to make that work, you know, across all the messaging platforms, you know, WhatsApp and Messenger and Instagram direct. But, you know, there's certainly, you know, a version of that where if you could have an avatar version of yourself in the metaverse that people can interact with and you could define that sort of an AI version where, you know, people know that they're interacting with an AI that it's not, you know, the kind of physical version of you. But maybe that AI, even if they know it's an AI is the next best thing because they're probably not going to, you know, necessarily all get to interact with you directly. I think that could be a really compelling experience. There's a lot of things that we need to get right about it that, you know, it's we're not ready to release the version that a creator can kind of build a version of themselves yet. But we're starting to experiment with it in terms of releasing a number of AIs that people can interact with in different ways. And I think that that is also just going to be a very powerful, you know, set of capabilities that people have over time.
而且，你知道的，这显然不仅仅是在元宇宙中。我认为，你知道的，我们希望使其在所有的消息平台上运行，比如WhatsApp、Messenger和Instagram直接讯息。但是，你知道的，肯定会有这样一个情况，即如果你可以在元宇宙中拥有一个你自己的虚拟形象，人们可以与之互动，而且你可以定义这种虚拟形象为AI版本，即使人们知道他们正在与AI互动，也能接受，因为他们可能不能直接与你互动。我认为这可能会是一种非常引人注目的体验。关于这方面，我们需要做很多正确的事情，目前我们还没有准备好发布一个创作者可以建立自己版本的版本。但是我们开始尝试通过发布一些不同方式与人们互动的AI来实验它。我认为，随着时间的推移，这也将成为人们拥有的一组非常强大的功能。
So you've made major strides in developing these early AI personalities with the idea where you can talk to them across the meta apps and have like interesting, unique kind of conversations. What can you describe your vision there and these early strides and what are some technical challenges there?
所以，你在开发这些早期人工智能个性方面已经取得了重大进展，这个想法是让你能够通过元应用与它们进行对话，并且进行有趣、独特的交流。你能描述一下你的愿景以及这些早期进展吗？还有哪些技术挑战存在？
所以，你在开发这些早期人工智能个性方面已经取得了重大进展，这个想法是让你能够通过元应用与它们进行对话，并且进行有趣、独特的交流。你能描述一下你的愿景以及这些早期进展吗？还有哪些技术挑战存在？
Yeah, so, I mean, a lot of the vision comes from this idea that, yeah, I don't think we necessarily want there to be like one big super intelligence. We want to empower everyone to both, you have more fun, accomplish their business goals, you know, everything that they're trying to do. And, you know, we don't tend to have, you know, one person that we work with on everything. And I don't think in the future, we're going to have, you know, one AI that we work with, I think you're going to want a variety of these. So there are a bunch of different uses.
是的，所以，我的意思是，很多愿景来自于这个想法，我不认为我们一定希望有一个巨大的超级智能。我们想要赋予每个人更多的乐趣和实现他们的商业目标，你知道，他们努力做的一切。而且，我们没有倾向于与一个人合作做一切。我认为在未来，我们也不会只有一个与之合作的人工智能，我认为你会想要有各种各样的人工智能。所以有很多不同的用途。
If some will be kind of more assistant oriented, there's a sort of the kind of plain and simple one that we that we're building is called just meta AI. It's simple. You can chat with it in any of your threads. It doesn't have a face, right? It's just it's it's just kind of more vanilla and neutral and kind of factual, but it can help you with a bunch of stuff.
如果有一些更倾向于助手功能的人，我们正在建立的一种称为"meta AI"的简单明了的助手。它很简单，您可以在任何对话中与它聊天。没有面孔，对吧？它只是一种更为朴素、中立和事实化的辅助，但它可以帮助您解决许多问题。
Then there are a bunch of cases that are more kind of business oriented. So let's say you want to contact a small business. You know, similarly, you know, that business probably doesn't want to have to staff someone to man the phones. And you probably don't want to wait on the phone to talk to someone. But having someone who you can just like talk to in a natural way who can help you if you're having an issue with a product or if you want to make a reservation or if you want to buy something online, having the ability to do that and have a natural conversation rather than navigate some website or have to call someone and wait on hold. Things can be really good both for the businesses and for for normal people who want to interact with businesses. So I think stuff like that makes sense.
然后还有一些更偏向商业的情况。比如说你想联系一个小型企业。你知道，类似地，这家企业可能不想雇佣人员来接电话。而你可能也不想在电话上等待与别人交谈。但是如果有一个能够用自然的方式与你交流并在你遇到产品问题、想要预订或在线购买商品时帮助你的人，而不是让你去浏览网站或者打电话等待，这对企业和普通人来说都是非常好的。所以我认为这样的事情是有道理的。
Then there are going to be a bunch of use cases that I think are just fun. So I think people are going to think that there will be AIs that can tell jokes. So you can put them into chat thread with friends. I think a lot of this because we're like a social company. We're fundamentally around helping people connect in different ways. And part of what I'm excited about is how do you enable these kind of AIs to facilitate connection between two people or more, put them in a group chat and make the group chat more interesting around whatever your interests are. Sports, fashion, trivia.
然后，我认为还会有一些有趣的应用场景。所以我认为人们会认为会有能讲笑话的人工智能。这样你就可以把它们放到和朋友聊天的对话中。我对此有很多想法，因为我们是一家社交公司。我们的基本目标是帮助人们以不同的方式建立联系。而我对此感到兴奋的一部分是，如何使这些人工智能能够促进两个或更多人之间的交流，将它们放入群聊中，并使群聊在你们兴趣所在的领域更加有趣，比如体育、时尚、问答。
Video games. I love the idea of playing, I think you mentioned Baldur's Gate, an incredible game. Just having an AI that you play together with. I mean, that could, that seems like a small thing, but it could deeply enrich the like gaming experience. I do think that AIs will make the NPCs a lot better in games too. So that's a separate thing that I'm pretty excited about. But yeah, I mean, one of the AIs that we've built that just in our internal testing people have loved the most is like an adventure, text-based, like a dungeon master. And I think part of what has been fun, and we talked about this a bit, but we've gotten some like real kind of cultural figures to play a bunch of these folks and be the embodiment and the avatar of them. So Snoop Dogg is the dungeon master, which I think is just a little bit. Yes.
视频游戏。我喜欢玩游戏的想法，我记得你提到过《博德之门》，那是一款令人难以置信的游戏。你只需要一个能够与你一起玩的人工智能，是不是听起来很小的事情，但它能够极大地丰富游戏体验。我确实认为人工智能也将使游戏中的非玩家角色变得更好。这是我非常兴奋的另一方面。但是，我们构建的一个人工智能，在我们的内部测试中获得了人们的喜爱，就像一个冒险、基于文本的“地牢主宰者”。我认为其中一部分乐趣所在是，我们邀请了一些真正的文化人物扮演其中的角色，成为他们的化身和化身。所以，斯努普·狗狗是地牢主宰者，我想这真的是有点太酷了。
In terms of the next steps of, you know, if you mentioned Snoop to create a Snoop AI, so basically AI personality replica, a copy, or not a copy, maybe inspired by Snoop. What are the some of the technical challenges of that? What does that experience look like for Snoop to be able to be that AI?
就下一步的计划而言，如果你提到建立一个Snoop AI，基本上是一个AI个性复制品，或者不是复制品，可能是受到Snoop启发的。那么其中有哪些技术挑战？对于Snoop来说，能成为那个AI的体验是怎样的呢？
So starting off, creating new personas is easier because it doesn't need to stick exactly to what, you know, that physical person would want, how they'd want to be represented, right? It's like it's just a new character that we created. So even though there's a Snoop in that case is, you know, he's, you know, he's basically an actor, right? He's playing the dungeon master, but it's not Snoop Dogg, right? It's, it's, you know, whoever the dungeon master is. If you want to actually make it so that you have an AI embodying a real creator, there's a whole set of things that you need to do to make sure that, that AI is not going to say things that the creator doesn't want, right? And, and that the AI is going to, you know, know things and be able to represent things in the way that the creator would want, the way that the creator would know. So I think that it's less of a, it's less of a question around, like, having the avatar express them. I mean, that, that I think we're, you know, it's like, well, we have our kind of V one of that that we'll release soon as after connect, but, you know, that'll get better over time. But a lot of this is really just about continuing to make the models for these AI is that they're just more and more, I don't know, you could say like, reliable or predictable in terms of what they'll communicate. So that way, you know, when you want to create the Lex assistant AI that, that your community can talk to, you can, you know, it's, you don't program them like normal computers, you're training them, they're AI models, not not, not, kind of normal computer programs.
首先，创建新的角色更容易，因为不需要完全符合现实人物的意愿和代表方式，对吧？就好像我们只是创造了一个新角色一样。所以，即使在那种情况下有个叫做“Snoop”的人，但实际上他只是一个演员，他扮演的是地牢主导师，而不是Snoop Dogg本人，他可能是任何一个地牢主导师。如果你想让AI代表一个真实的创作者，那你需要做很多事情，以确保AI不会说出创作者不想要的话，而且它能够以创作者想要的方式知道和表达事物。所以我认为这并不是一个让角色表达他们自己的问题。我想我们目前的版本就是这样的，我们很快会在连接后发布，但它们会越来越好。但这其中的很大一部分其实只是关于不断改进AI模型，使它们在沟通中变得越来越可靠或可预测。这样，当你想要创建一个可以与你的社群交流的Lex助手AI时，你可以训练它们，而不是像普通计算机那样编程。
But, but you want to get it to be predictable enough so that way you can set some parameters for it. And even if it isn't perfect all the time, you want it to generally be able to stay within those bounds. So that's a lot of what I think we need to nail for, for the creators. And that's why that one's actually a much harder problem, I think, than starting with, with, with new characters that you're creating from scratch. So that one, I think, will probably start releasing sometime next year, not this year, but experimenting with existing characters and the assistant games and a bunch of different personalities and experimenting with some small businesses. I think that that stuff will be ready to do this year and we're rolling it out, you know, basically right after connect.
但是，您希望它足够可预测，这样您可以设定一些参数。即使它并不总是完美无缺，您希望它通常能够保持在这些范围内。这就是我认为我们需要解决的很多问题。这就是为什么我认为这个问题比从零开始创造新角色要困难得多。所以我想，可能明年才会开始发布，而不是今年，但我们会在现有角色和助手游戏中进行实验，并尝试不同的个性以及与一些小企业进行实验。我认为这些方面今年将准备就绪，并且我们将在Connect大会之后推出。
Yeah, I'm deeply entertained by the possibility of me sitting down with myself and saying, Hey, man, like you need to stop the dad jokes or whatever. The idea of a podcast between you and AI assistant Lex podcast. I mean, there is just even the experience of a codec avatar being able to freeze yourself, like, basically first mimic yourself. So everything you do, you get to see yourself do it. That's a surreal experience. That feels like if I was like an ape looking in a mirror for the first time, realizing like, Oh, that's you. But then freezing that and being able to look around like I'm looking at you. It's a, I don't know how to put it into words, but it just feels like a fundamental new experience. Like I'm seeing maybe color for the first time seeing I'm experiencing a new way of seeing the world for the first time, because it's physical reality, but it's digital. Like, and realizing that that's possible is just it's blowing my mind.
是的，我对能够与自己坐下来并说：“嘿，伙计，你需要停止开爸爸笑话了”之类的可能性感到非常开心。你和AI助手Lex进行一次播客的想法。实际上，就连使用编解码使你的自我冻结的体验也很奇妙，因为它基本上是在模仿你自己。所以你所做的一切，都可以看到自己在做。这是一种超现实的体验。它让我感觉就像是一只猿猴第一次照镜子，意识到：“哦，那是你。”然后冻结住，并能够四处看，就像我正在看着你一样。我不知道如何用言语来表达它，但它感觉就像是一种根本性的新体验。就像我第一次看到颜色一样，我正在经历一种全新的看世界的方式，因为它是物质的现实，但是又是数字的。意识到这一点可能是令我惊叹的。
This is really exciting. Because I live most of my life, you know, before the internet and experience the internet, experiencing voice communication, video communication, you think like, well, there's a ceiling to this, but this is making me feel like there might not be there might be that blend of physical reality and digital reality. It's actually what the future is.
这太令人兴奋了。因为我生活的大部分时间都是在互联网之前，所以能经历互联网，体验语音通信、视频通信，你会觉得，嗯，这有个限度，但这让我感觉好像可能还有将现实世界和数字世界融合的可能性。这其实就是未来的样子。
Yeah, it's a weird experience. It's a, it feels like the early days of like a totally new way of living. And like, there's a lot of people that kind of complain, well, you know, the internet is not, that's not reality. You need to turn all that off and go, you know, in nature. But this feels like this will make those people happy. I feel like because it feels real. The flaws and everything.
是的，这是一种奇怪的体验。它感觉就像是生活的全新方式的早期阶段。而且，有很多人抱怨，说互联网并不是真实的。他们认为你需要关闭一切，去走进大自然。但我觉得这会让那些人感到开心。因为它感觉真实。包括缺陷和一切。
Yeah, well, I mean, a big part of how we're trying to design this, these new computing products is that they should be physical. But I think part that's a big part of the issue with computers and TVs and even phones is like, yeah, I mean, maybe you can interact with them in different places, but they're they're fundamentally like you're sitting, you're, you're still. And I mean, people are just not meant to be that way.
是的，我是说，我们在设计这些新的计算产品时，很大一部分的目标是让它们具有物质感。但是我认为电脑、电视甚至手机存在的一个主要问题是，虽然你可以在不同的地方与它们进行互动，但它们本质上仍然是静止的。我是说，人们就是不应该处于那种状态。
I mean, I think you and I have this shared passion for sports and martial arts and doing stuff like that. We're just moving around. It's like so much of what makes us people is like, you move around, you're not, we're not just like a brain and a tank, right? It's the where, you know, the human experience is a physical one. And so it's not just about having the immersive expression of the digital world. It's about being able to really natively bring that together.
我的意思是，我认为你和我对于体育和武术以及类似活动有共同的热爱。我们只是在四处流动。就像我们作为人的一部分，大部分体现在我们的行动上，我们并不只是脑袋和桶子对吧？这是一种身体的人类经历。所以，不仅仅是关于在数字世界中有沉浸式的表达，更重要的是能够真正地将这两者融合在一起。
And I do really think that the real world is this mix of the physical and the digital, right? The digital is there's too much digital at this point for it to just be siloed to a small screen. But the physical is too important. So you don't want to just sit down all day long or to desk. So I think that this is, yeah, I do think that this is the future. This is, I think the kind of philosophical way that I would want the world to work in the future is a much more coherently blended physical and digital world.
我真的认为现实世界是由物理和数字元素的混合体，对吧？数字元素在现在已经太多了，不能只局限于小屏幕上。但物理世界也非常重要。所以你不希望整天坐在桌前。因此，我认为这是未来。我认为，我希望未来的世界以更加协调融合的物理和数字世界方式工作，这是我在哲学上的看法。
There might be some difficult philosophical and unethical questions we have to figure out as a society. Maybe you can comment on this. So the metaverse seems to enable sort of unlock a lot of experiences that we don't have in the physical world. And the question is, like, what is and isn't allowed in the metaverse? You know, in video games, we allow all kinds of crazy stuff. And in physical reality, you know, a lot of that is illegal. So where's that line? Where's that gray area between video game and physical reality? Do you have a sense of that?
作为社会，我们可能会面临一些困难的哲学和伦理问题。也许你可以对此发表评论。所以，元宇宙似乎能够开启许多在现实世界中无法体验到的体验。问题是，元宇宙中允许什么，不允许什么？在视频游戏中，我们允许各种疯狂的事情发生。而在现实中，许多行为是非法的。那个界限在哪里？在视频游戏和现实之间的灰色地带在哪里？你对此有什么看法？
Well, I think, I mean, there are content policies and things like that, right? In terms of what people are allowed to create. But I mean, a lot of the rules around physical, I think we try to have a society that is as free as possible, meaning that people can do as much of what they want, unless you're going to do damage to other people and infringe on their rights. And the idea of damage is somewhat different in a digital environment.
嗯，我觉得，我的意思是，有一些内容政策之类的东西，对吧？就是规定人们被允许创造什么的。但是我的意思是，在实体世界的规则中，我们试图建立一个尽可能自由的社会，也就是说人们可以做他们想做的事情，除非他们会对他人造成伤害并侵害他们的权利。而在数字环境中，伤害的概念有些不同。
I mean, when I get into, you know, some world with my friends, the first thing we start doing is shooting each other, which obviously we would not do in the physical world because you'd hurt each other. But in a game that's like just, it's almost, you know, it's like just fun. And I'm even like the lobby of a game, right? It's like, it's just, it's not even bearing on the game, which is kind of like a funny, sort of humorous thing to do. So it's like, is that problematic? I don't think so, because it's fundamentally, it's not, you're not causing harm in that world.
我是说，当我和朋友们进入某个虚拟世界时，我们首先要做的事情就是互相射击，这在现实世界中显然是不可能做到的，因为这样会伤害到彼此。但在游戏中，这只是一种娱乐，几乎可以说是，你懂的，很有趣。就算是在游戏的大厅里，这甚至都与游戏本身无关，但却是一种有趣而幽默的事情。那么，这会有问题吗？我认为不会，因为从根本上说，你不会在那个世界里造成伤害。
So I think that the part of the question that I think we need to figure out is what are the ways where things could have been harmful in the physical world that we'll now be freed from that. And therefore, there should be fewer restrictions in the digital world. And then there might be new ways in which there could be harm in the digital world that there weren't the case before.
因此，我认为我们需要解决的问题部分是：物理世界中可能会具有有害影响的方面，在数字世界中我们将从中获得解放。因此，在数字世界中应该有更少的限制。同时，数字世界可能会出现在以前不存在的新的方式中可能会造成伤害。
So there's more anonymity, right? It's, you know, when you, when you show up to a restaurant or something, it's like all the norms where you pay the bill at the end. It's because you know, you, you have one identity and the idea, you know, if you, if you stiff them, then like, you know, life is a repeat game and that's not going to work out well for you. But in a digital world where you can be anonymous and show up in different ways, I think the incentive to act like a good citizen can be a lot less. And that causes a lot of issues and toxic behavior. So that needs to get sorted out.
所以有更多的匿名性，对吗？你知道，当你去餐厅或者其他地方的时候，付账单通常是在最后结账。这是因为你拥有一个身份，而且如果你不付账，人们会认为生活是一个重复的游戏，那对你来说并不好。但在数字世界中，你可以匿名以不同的方式出现，我觉得像一个好公民行事的动机就会大大减少。这就导致了很多问题和有害的行为。所以，这个问题需要解决。
So I think in terms of what is allowed, I think you want to just look at what, what, what are the damages. But then there's also other things that are not related to kind of harm, you know, less about what should be allowed and more about what will be possible that are more about the laws of physics.
所以我认为从允许的角度来看，你应该专注于损害的情况。但是还有一些与伤害无关的其他因素，这不仅仅涉及允许什么，更多地与可能性和物理定律有关。
So right, it's like, if you wanted to travel to see me in person, you'd have to get on a plane. And, and that would like, you know, take a few hours to get here. Whereas, you know, we could just jump in a conference room and, you know, put on these headsets and we basically teleported into a space where we're, you know, it feels like we're together. So that's a very novel experience that, that it breaks down some things that previously would have defied the laws of physics for what it would take to get together. And I think that that will create a lot of new opportunities.
没错，就好像，如果你想要亲自来见我，就必须得坐飞机。而且，你知道的，这样要花上几个小时才能到这里。然而，你知道的，我们只需进入一个会议室，戴上这些头戴式设备，我们就仿佛传送到了一个我们在一起的空间里。所以，这是一种非常新奇的体验，它打破了以前在我们聚在一起时会违反物理定律的一些事物。我认为这将创造很多新的机会。
Right. So one of the things that I'm curious about is, you know, there are all these debates right now about remote work or people being together. And, you know, I think this gets us a lot closer to being able to work physically in different places, but actually have it feel like we're together. So, you know, I think the dream is that, is that people will one day be able to just work wherever they want. But we'll have all the same opportunities because you'll be able to feel like you're physically together. I think we're not there today with, with, with just video conferencing and the basic technologies that we have. But I think part of the idea is that with something like this, over time, you could get closer to that. And that would open up a lot of opportunities, right? Because then people could live physically where they want while still being able to get the benefits of being physically or kind of feeling like you're together with people at work, all the ways that that helps to build more culture and build better relationships and build trust, which are real issues that if you're not seeing people, you know, in person ever.
没错，我对其中的一件事很好奇，你知道，现在有很多关于远程工作或人们在一起的辩论。我认为这让我们更接近于能够在不同地方进行实地工作，但却能感觉到我们在一起。所以，我想梦想是，人们有朝一日能够自由选择工作地点，同时也能享受到相同的机会，因为你能感觉到自己身临其境。我认为现在我们还没有做到这一点，仅通过视频会议和基本技术是不够的。但我认为这个想法的一部分是，随着像这样的技术的发展，随着时间的推移，你可以更接近实现这个目标。这将带来许多机会，对吧？因为这样，人们可以根据自己的意愿居住，同时仍然能够享受到与工作中的人们实际在一起或感觉在一起的好处，这有助于建立更多文化，建立更好的人际关系和建立信任。这些都是真实问题，如果你从未亲眼见过别人的话。
So yeah, I don't know. I think it's going to be, it's very hard from first principles to think about all the implications of, of a technology like this and, you know, all the good and, and, and the things that you need to mitigate. So, you try to do your best to kind of envision what things are going to be like and accentuate the things that they're going to be awesome and hopefully mitigate some of the, the downside things. But I, you know, it's the reality is that we're going to be building this out one year at a time. It's going to take a while. So we're going to just get to see how, how it evolves and what developers and different folks do with it.
所以，嗯，我不知道。我觉得从最初的原则上去考虑这种技术的所有影响是非常困难的，你知道，所有的好处和需要避免的问题。因此，你尽力想像未来会是什么样子，并增强将变得令人惊叹的事物，希望减轻一些负面因素。但你知道，现实是我们将一年一年地逐步构建它。这需要一段时间。所以我们只能看到它是如何发展的，开发者和其他人会如何利用它。
If you could comment, this might be a bit of a very specific technical question, but Alama too is incredible. It's the, you've released it recently. There's already been a lot of exciting developments around it. Is there, what, what's your sense about its release and is there Alama 3 in the future?
如果您有意见的话，这可能是一个非常具体的技术问题，但Alama也是令人难以置信的。您最近发布了它。已经有许多令人兴奋的进展。您对它的发布有何感觉？未来是否会有Alama3呢？
Yeah, I mean, I think on the last podcast that we did together, we were talking about the debate that we were having around open sourcing Alama 2. And I'm glad that we did. You know, I think at this point, there's the value of open sourcing a foundation model like Alama 2 is significantly greater than, than the, than the risks in my view. I mean, we did, we spent a lot of time to get a very rigorous assessment of that and red teaming it. But I'm very glad that we released Alama 2. I think the reception has been, it's just been really exciting to see how excited people have been about it. And it's gotten way more, you know, downloads and usage than I, than I, I would have even expected and I was pretty optimistic about it. So that's, that's been great.
是的，我是说，在我们上次一起录制的播客中，我们谈到了关于开源Alama 2的辩论。我很高兴我们这样做了。你知道，我认为在这一点上，像Alama 2这样的基础模型的开源价值要远远大于风险，至少在我看来是这样。我们花了很多时间对它进行了非常严谨的评估和红队测试。但我很高兴我们发布了Alama 2。我觉得人们的反应非常令人兴奋，可以看到他们对它的期待。它的下载量和使用量远远超出了我的预期，而我对此本来就抱有相当乐观的态度。所以这真的很棒。
Alama 3, I mean, there's always another model that we're training. So I mean, it's, you know, for right now, you know, we built, we train Alama 2 and we released it as an open source model. And right now the priority is building that into a bunch of the consumer products, all the different AIs and, and a bunch of different products that we're basically building as consumer products. Because Alama 2 by itself, it's not a consumer product, right? It's more of a piece of infrastructure that people could, could build things with. So that's been the big priority is kind of continuing to fine tune and, and, and kind of just get Alama 2 and, and it's, and it's little, the branches that we've built off of it ready for consumer products that hopefully, you know, hundreds of millions of people will, will enjoy using those, those products and billions one day. But yeah, I mean, we're also working on, on the future foundation models and, and I don't have anything new or news, news on that. I don't know, and I don't know exactly when it's going to be ready. I think just like we had a debate around Alama 2 and open sourcing it, I think we'll, we'll need to have a similar debate and process to red team this and make sure that this is safe. But, and my hope is that we'll be able to, to open source this next version when it's ready to. But, but that's not, that we're not, we're not, you know, close to doing that this month. I mean, this is, that's just, it's a thing that we're, we're still somewhat early in working on.
Alama 3，我的意思是我们总是有其他的模型在训练。所以，嗯，现在，嗯，我们建立了并训练了Alama 2，并将其作为一个开源模型发布。现在的重点是将其构建到一些消费者产品中，包括各种不同的人工智能和其他消费者产品，因为Alama 2本身并不是一个消费者产品，它更像是一种基础架构，人们可以用它构建其他东西。所以，目前的主要任务是继续微调Alama 2及其相关分支，以准备好为消费者产品服务，希望有数以亿计的人能够享受使用这些产品，将来能有数十亿人使用。但是，我们也在致力于未来的基础模型，并且对此没有任何新的消息或进展。我不确定何时才能准备好。我认为，就像我们在Alama 2的开源问题上进行了辩论一样，我们将需要进行类似的辩论和审查过程，以确保它的安全性。希望我们在下一个版本准备好时也能够将其开源。但是这并不是说我们本月就会这样做。这仅仅是我们仍在早期开发中的一个项目。
Well, in general, thank you so much for open sourcing Alama 2 and for being transparent about all the exciting developments around AI. I feel like that's contributing to a really awesome conversation about where we go with AI. And obviously, it's really interesting to see all the same kind of technology integrated into these personalized AI systems with the, with the AI personas, which I think will, when you put in people's hands and they get to have conversations with these AI personas, you get to see like interesting failure cases, like where the things are dumb or they go into weird directions or, and we get to learn as a society together. What's, what's too far, what's interesting, what's fun, how much personalization is good, how much generic is good, and we get to learn all of this. And you probably don't know this yourself, like, we have to all figure it out by using it, right?
总的来说，非常感谢你们开源Alama 2，并且对所有关于人工智能的令人兴奋的发展进行透明度披露。我觉得这对于我们对于人工智能的发展方向进行一场真正棒的讨论是有所贡献的。很明显，看到这些个性化AI系统集成了相同的技术是非常有趣的，当将这些AI实体置于人们手中并与其进行对话时，我们就能看到有趣的失败案例，例如一些问题回答愚蠢、朝着奇怪的方向发展等，而我们可以作为一个社会一起学习。这其中我们能够了解到什么是过度的，什么是有趣的，什么是好的个性化程度，什么是好的普适性程度，我们将会逐步学习所有这些。而且你可能自己都不知道，我们必须通过使用来一起找到答案，对吗？
Yeah, I mean, part of what we're trying to do with the initial AI is launch is having a diversity of different use cases, just so that people can try different things because I don't know what's going to work. I mean, are people going to like playing in the tech space adventure games? Are they going to, you know, like having a comedian who can add jokes to threads or they can want to interact with historical figures? You know, we made, we made one of Jane Austen and one of Marcus Aurelius and I'm curious to see how that goes. I'm excited for both.
是的，我的意思是，我们在尝试推出初始AI时的一部分目标是提供多样性的不同用途，这样人们就可以尝试不同的事情，因为我不知道什么会起作用。我的意思是，人们会喜欢参与科技空间冒险游戏吗？他们会喜欢有个喜剧演员可以给对话串添加笑话吗？他们会想和历史人物互动吗？我们制作了一个简·奥斯汀的AI和一个马库斯·奥勒留的AI，我很好奇这些会怎样发展。我对两者都感到兴奋。
Yeah. As a big fan, I'm excited for both the conversation with them. I mean, yeah, that's, you know, and I am also excited to see, you know, the internet, I don't know if you heard can get kind of weird and I applaud them for it. So I get that. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be nice to see how weird they take it. What kind of means I generated from this? And I think all of it is a, especially in these early stages of development, as we progress towards AGI, it's good to learn by playing with those systems and interacting with them. And like a large scale, like you said.
是的，作为一个狂热的粉丝，我对与他们的对话感到兴奋。我的意思是，是的，你知道的，而且我也很兴奋看到，你知道的，互联网可能会变得有些奇怪，而我对此表示赞赏。所以我理解这点。是的。是的。看他们会把它搞得多么奇怪会很有趣。我能从中生成什么样的意义？我认为在开发的早期阶段，尤其是我们朝着人工智能的发展前进时，通过与这些系统进行玩耍和互动来学习是很好的。而且，就像你说的那样，要在大规模上实施。
Yeah, totally. I mean, that's why, well, we're starting out with a set and then we're also working on this platform that we call AI Studio that's going to make it so that, you know, over time, anyone will be able to create one of these AI is almost like they create any other UGC content across the platform. So I'm excited about that. I think that to some degree, we're not going to see the full potential of this until you just have the full creativity of the whole community being able to build stuff. But there's a lot of, a lot of stuff that we need to get right. So I'm excited to take this in stages. I don't think anyone out there is really doing what we're doing here. I think that there are people who are doing kind of like fictional or consumer oriented character type stuff, but the extent to which we're building it out with the avatars and expressiveness and making it so that they can interact across all the different apps and they'll have profiles and, you know, we'll be able to engage people on Instagram and Facebook. I think it's just it's going to be really fun.
是啊，完全没错。我的意思是，这就是为什么我们首先从一个套件开始，然后我们还在开发这个我们称之为AI工作室的平台，使得随着时间的推移，任何人都能像创建平台上的其他UGC内容一样创建一个这样的AI。所以我对此感到兴奋。我认为，在完全利用整个社区的创造力之前，我们不会看到这种技术的全部潜力。但我们还有很多事情需要做好。所以我很高兴能够分阶段去实现这个目标。我认为没有人真的在做我们现在在做的事情。我知道有一些人在做类似虚构或面向消费者的角色类型的工作，但我们在角色的建构、表现力以及使其能够在各种不同的应用程序之间互动方面的工作范围非常广泛，而且他们将拥有个人资料，我们将能够在Instagram和Facebook上吸引人们的兴趣。我认为这将非常有趣。
Well, I'm still, so we're talking about AI, but I'm still blown away this entire time that I'm talking to Mark Zuckerberg. You're not here, but you feel like you're here. I've done quite a few intimate conversations with people alone in the room. And this feels like that. So I keep forgetting for long stretches of time that we're not in the same room.
嗯，我仍然很惊讶，我们正在谈论人工智能，但是我与马克·扎克伯格交谈的整个过程中，我一直感到非常震撼。你不在这里，但你感觉就像在这里一样。我在一个人独处的房间里进行了很多亲密的对话。而这次感觉就像那样。所以我经常会在很长一段时间内忘记我们不在同一个房间中。
And for me to imagine a future where I can with a snap of a finger do that with anyone in my life, the way we can just call right now and have this kind of shallow 2D experience to have this experience like we're sitting next to each other is like, I don't think I can, I don't think we can even imagine what how that changes things where you can immediately have intimate one-on-one conversations with anyone. That's that might like in a way we might not even predict change civilization.
对我来说，想象一个未来，在那个我可以通过一指之间与生活中的任何人做到这一点的未来，就像我们现在可以随时打电话并拥有这种肤浅的二维体验，就像我们坐在一起一样的体验，我觉得我无法想象，我觉得我们甚至无法想象这将如何改变一切，你可以立即与任何人进行亲密的一对一对话。这可能会以一种我们甚至无法预测的方式改变文明。
Well, I mean, this is a lot of the thesis behind the whole metaverse is giving people the ability to feel like you're present with someone. I mean, this is like the main thing I talk about all the time. But I do think that there's a lot to process about it. I mean, from my perspective, I mean, I'm definitely here. We're just not, we're not physically in the same place. It's not like you're, you know, you're not talking to an AI, right? You know, this is so I think the thing that's novel is the ability to convey through technology a sense of almost physical presence. So the thing that is not physically real is us being in the same physical place, but kind of everything else is. And I think that gets to this somewhat philosophical question about what is the nature of kind of the modern real world. And I just think that that's, it really is this combination of physical world and the presence that we feel, but also being able to combine that with this increasingly rich and powerful and capable digital world that we have and and all of the innovation that's getting created there.
嗯，我的意思是，元宇宙的核心理念之一就是让人们能够感受到与他人的共存。这是我一直在谈论的主要内容。但我认为这需要我们做很多思考。从我的角度来看，我确实在这里。我们只是不在同一个物理位置上。不是说你在与一个人工智能对话，对吧？所以我认为新颖的地方在于，通过技术传达一种几乎物理存在的感觉。虽然我们物理上不在同一个地方，但其他方面几乎都是真实的。我认为这引发了对现代真实世界本质的哲学问题。我认为，它确实是现实世界和我们感受到的共存的结合，同时还能将其与我们日益丰富、强大和有能力的数字世界相结合，以及在那里创造的所有创新。
So I think it's super exciting because I mean, the digital world is just is just increasing in its capability and our ability to do awesome things. But the physical world is so profound. And that's a lot of what makes us human is that we're physical beings. I don't think we want to run away from that and just spend all day on a screen. And that's like, you know, it's one of the reasons why I care so much about about helping to shape and accelerate these future computing platforms. I just think this is so powerful. And it's, it's, you know, even though the current version of this is like you're wearing a headset, I just think this is going to be by far the most human and social computing platform that has ever existed. And that's what makes me excited.
所以我认为这非常令人兴奋，因为我的意思是，数字世界的能力不断增强，我们能够做出很棒的事情。但是现实世界是如此深刻。这是我们人类的很大一部分，我们是有身体的存在。我认为我们不想逃离现实世界，整天只待在屏幕前。这就是为什么我如此关心并努力塑造和推进未来的计算平台的原因之一。我只是觉得这是如此强大。尽管当前版本是佩戴头戴式显示器，但我认为这将是有史以来最具人性和社交性的计算平台。这就是令我兴奋的原因。
Yeah, I think just the link around this kind of changing nature of reality, like of what is real, maybe shifting it towards the sort of consciousness. So what is real is the subjective experience of a thing that makes you feel real versus necessarily being in the same physical space. Because it feels like we're in the same physical space. And that the conscious experience of it, that's probably what is real, not like that the space time, like the physics of it, like you're basically breaking physics and focusing on the consciousness. That's what's real. Is this whatever is going on inside my head? But there were a lot of social and psychological things that go along with that experience that was previously only physical presence, right?
是的，我认为这种变化的本质正是与现实的实质、真实性有关，或许可以将其转向意识的方向。所谓的真实，可能是一种主观体验，是一种使你感到真实存在的事物，而不一定是身处相同物理空间中。因为感觉上我们似乎在同一个物理空间里。而且对于这种意识体验来说，那可能才是真实的，而不是空间时间或物理学上的认知，基本上你是在突破物理学并专注于意识。那才是真实的，就是我头脑中所发生的任何事情。但与此有关的社交和心理因素很多，而这些以前只存在于实体存在中，对吧？
I think that there's like an intimacy, a trust. There's a level of communication because so much of communication is nonverbal and is based on expressions that you're sharing with someone when you're in this environment. And before those things would have only been possible, had I gotten on a plane and flown to Austin and sat physically with you in the same place. So I think we're basically short cutting those laws of physics and delivering the social and psychological benefits of being able to be present and feel like you're there with another person, which I've got real benefits to anyone in the world. And I think that that, like you said, I think that is going to be a very profound thing. And that a lot of that is, that's the promise of the metaverse and what, you know, why, you know, I just, well, I think that that's the next frontier for what we're working on.
我认为在这种环境中，存在一种亲密感和信任。沟通的很大一部分是非言语的，基于你与他人在这种环境中分享的表情。以前，要实现这些，我只能乘飞机飞往奥斯汀，与你亲自坐在一起。因此，我认为我们基本上是通过缩短物理距离来传递社交和心理上的好处，让你感觉像真的和另一个人在一起，这对世界上的任何人都极有益处。我认为这是一个非常深远的事情，正如你所说，这是元宇宙的承诺，以及我们正在努力开发的下一个前沿。
You know, I started working on social networks when they were primarily text, or the first version of Facebook, your profile, you know, you had one photo and the rest of it was like lists of things that you were interested in.
你知道，我在社交网络上开始工作时，它们主要是文本形式的，或者说是最初的Facebook，你的个人资料，你知道的，只有一张照片，其他部分都是你感兴趣的事物的列表。
And then we kind of went through the period we were doing photos.
然后我们经历了一个我们在拍照的阶段。
And now we're kind of in the period where most of the content is video.
现在我们正处于大部分内容都是视频的时期。
But there's a clear trend where, you know, over time, the way that we want to express ourselves and kind of get inside and content about the world around us gets increasingly just richer and more vivid.
但有一个明显的趋势，随着时间的推移，我们想要表达自己和了解周围世界的方式越来越丰富而生动。
And I think the ability to be immersed and feel present with the people around you, or the people who you care about is, from my perspective, clearly, the next frontier.
我认为，能够沉浸在周围的人或你关心的人中，并能感受到他们的存在，从我的角度来看，这显然是下一个发展方向。
It just so happens that it's incredibly technologically difficult, right? It requires building up these new computing platforms and completely new software stacks to deliver that.
碰巧的是，这是非常复杂的技术任务，对吧？这需要建立全新的计算平台和完全不同的软件栈来实现。
But I kind of feel like that's what we're here to do as a company.
但是我有点觉得这正是我们作为一家公司的使命。
Well, I really love the connection you have to the conversation.
嗯，我真的很喜欢你对谈话的投入程度。
And so for me, this photo realism is really, really exciting.
对我来说，这种照片写实主义非常非常令人兴奋。
I'm really excited for this future. And thank you for building it.
我对未来感到非常兴奋。同时也感谢你们的努力构建它。
Thanks to you. And thanks to the amazing meta teams that I've met, the engineers and just everybody I've met here. Thank you for helping to build this future. And thank you, Mark, for talking to me inside the metaverse.
多亏了你，也要感谢我遇到的令人惊叹的超脱团队，以及所有在这里我认识的工程师和大家。谢谢你们帮助建设这个未来。还要感谢马克，在元宇宙内与我交谈。
This is blowing my mind. I can't quite express. I would love to measure my heart rate this whole time. It would be hilarious if you're actually like sitting in a beach right now.
这简直让我震惊不已，我无法完全表达出来。我一直都很想测量我的心率。如果你现在实际上正坐在一个海滩上，那该是多么有趣啊。
I'm not I'm in a conference room.
我不在，我在一个会议室里。
Okay, well, I'm in a beach and if and not wearing any pants, I'm really sorry about that for anyone else who's watching me in physical space.
好的，我现在在海滩上，并且没有穿裤子，对于其他在现场观看我的人，非常抱歉。
Anyway, thank you so much for talking today. This is this really blew my mind. It's one of the most incredible experiences of my life.
不管怎样，非常感谢你今天的谈话。这真的让我大开眼界。这是我生命中最令人难以置信的经历之一。
So thank you for giving that to me.
谢谢你给我那个。
Awesome. Awesome. Glad you got to check it out.
太棒了！太棒了！很高兴你可以去看看。
And it's always fun to talk.
而且，交谈总是很有趣的。
All right, I'll catch you soon. See you later.
好的，我很快会找你。再见。
This is so so amazing, man.
太棒了，真是太棒了，伙计。
This is so amazing.
太令人惊叹了。