Wolfson History Prize special
发布时间 2014-06-03 15:00:57 来源
Maybe that the deer, whose deer, is anbillain. Or it may not be. He'll write himself and then deny it. That was Susan Brickdon, author of Thomas Wyatt, the heart's forest.
也许那只鹿，它的鹿，是个罪犯。或者也可能不是。他会写信否认。这是苏珊·布里克登，汤马斯·怀特的作者。
From the point of view of the democracy, it is crucial that there is constant debate, constant engagement with not just contemporary issues but with what's happened in the past. And that was Christopher Duggan, author of Fascist Voices.
从民主的角度来看，有持续的辩论，持续的参与不仅仅是与当今的议题，也包括过去发生的事情至关重要。这是《法西斯主义之声》的作者克里斯托弗·达根的观点。
These two historians have both just been awarded the prestigious Wolves and History Prize. Hello and welcome to the History Extra Podcast. My name is Rob Atter and I'm the editor of BBC History magazine, which is the UK's best-selling History magazine. You can find it in all good news agents and on subscription. See History Extra.com forward slash subscribe hyphen today for subscription deals. And we have digital editions available for the iPad, the Kindle, Google Play and Kindle Fire. For details of our digital formats head to historyextra.com forward slash digital.
这两位历史学家都刚刚获得了备受推崇的“狼和历史奖”。欢迎来到历史Extra播客。我叫罗布·阿特尔，是英国最畅销的历史杂志BBC History magazine的编辑。你可以在所有好的新闻代理商那里找到它，也可以订阅。请前往HistoryExtra.com/subscribe-today获取订阅优惠。我们还提供适用于iPad、Kindle、Google Play和Kindle Fire的数字版。关于我们的数字版格式的详情，请登录historyextra.com/digital。
This week's podcast is a Wolves and History Prize special. First awarded in 1972, this accolade recognizes the best accessible history works of the year. And has gone on to become one of the most prestigious awards of its kind. Past winners include the likes of Anthony Beaver, Mary Beard and Ian Kershaw.
本周的播客是“狼与历史奖”的特别节目。该奖项首次颁发于1972年，旨在表彰当年最优秀、易于被理解的历史作品，并已成为同类奖项中最负盛名的奖项之一。过去的获奖者包括安东尼·比弗、玛丽·比尔德和伊恩·克尔肖等知名历史学家。
On Tuesday, two new names were added to the roster. Christopher Duggan and Susan Brickdon, who have scooped the latest awards for their books, Fascist Voices and Thomas Wyatt, The Hearts Forest.
周二，新名字被加入到名单中。克里斯托弗·达根和苏珊·布里克顿，他们的书《法西斯之声》和《托马斯·怀亚特，心灵之森》赢得了最新的奖项。
Fascist Voices by Professor Christopher Duggan of the University of Reading tells the story of Mussolini's Italy through the voices of those who lived through the era. By analysing letters, diaries and police files, Duggan reveals a surprising level of enthusiasm for the fascist regime.
《法西斯主义之声》是由雷丁大学的克里斯托弗·达根教授所著，通过当时生活在墨索里尼时期的人们的声音，讲述了意大利法西斯主义的故事。通过分析信件、日记和警方档案，达根揭示了人们对法西斯政权的惊人热情。
In Thomas Wyatt, The Hearts Forest Oxford Historian Susan Brickdon studies the life and work of the Tudor poet Thomas Wyatt, who was intimately involved with many of the key players of Henry VIII's reign. Famously, he was said to have been a lover of Amber Lynn, and this is one of the mysteries of Wyatt's life that Brickdon seeks to tackle in her biography.
《汤姆斯·怀特，心灵的森林》是牛津历史学家苏珊·布瑞克登研究都铎时期诗人汤姆斯·怀特生平和作品的著作。怀特与亨利八世时代的许多关键人物密切相关，因此在怀特的生平中，他被称为是爱人安伯·琳的情人，这是布瑞克登在其传记中试图解开的谜团之一。
I met up with Christopher and Susan recently to discuss their respective works and to discover the secrets of writing award-winning popular history.
最近，我和克里斯托弗和苏珊相遇，这是为了讨论他们各自的作品和发现写获得奖项的流行历史的秘密。
Before we hear the conversations, here is a quick word from Paul Ramsbottom, Chief Executive of the Wilson Foundation. The intention is that it will shine a light on two books that are exceptional works of history and that have a real resonance with a wider audience. The intention from our perspective is really to highlight that type of work. We hope that it comes as a real morale boost for the winners as an encouragement to other people writing for a wider audience, albeit very much within a scholarly context.
在我们听到谈话之前，这里有一句来自威尔逊基金会首席执行官保罗·拉姆斯底的快速话语。其目的是让大家了解两本出色的历史作品，这些作品与广泛观众有着真正的共鸣。从我们的角度来看，我们的意图真正是突出这种类型的工作。我们希望这会成为获奖者的真正士气提升，同时也鼓励其他人针对更广泛的观众撰写作品，尽管这是非常学术的情况下。
I guess at a more parochial level, we hope clearly that it will have an impact on the sales of the books that it will encourage people to go and to read these wonderful winners. I'm always conscious that the timing comes out at the beginning of summer holiday period. I have these rather nice images of people heading off to beaches in the Mediterranean with a copy of each book and each arm. That was Paul Ramsbottom.
我猜在更局限的层面上，我们希望这将对这些书的销售产生影响，鼓励人们去阅读这些出色的获奖作品。我时刻意识到，这个时机正好是暑假开始的时期。我想象人们带着每本书，手臂盈余地前往地中海的海滩。这就是保罗·拉姆斯波特所想的。
And now on to our panel discussion. I should mention that some of the topics we covered were suggested by Richard Evans, a member of the Judging Panel.
现在开始我们的小组讨论。我应该提到的是，我们讨论的一些话题是由评审小组的成员Richard Evans提出的建议。意思是，在开展小组讨论的时候，需要说明其中一些话题是由评审小组成员Richard Evans提出的建议。
You've both been awarded a prize for writing history that the general public can enjoy. What is it you think that makes a piece of history accessible?
你们两个因为写下了一篇通俗易懂的历史文章而获得了奖项。你们认为什么因素使得一篇历史文章易于理解呢？
Well, I think it's got to have people in it, it's got to have stories. And I guess there are certain subject areas that resonate with people.
我认为一部好电影必须要有人，要有故事。我想特定的题材会触动人们的共鸣。
The tutors obviously has huge pop-up appeal at the moment through novels, through films. And obviously through works like Susan's book on Thomas White. So I think you were trying to choose a subject area.
辅导员目前显然在小说、电影等方面拥有巨大的受欢迎程度，而且显然通过苏珊写的有关托马斯·怀特的书籍也非常有吸引力。因此，我认为你正在尝试选择一个学科领域。
Mine was on a Tannin fascism. Whereas a Tannin fascism perhaps has not had a huge amount of public coverage. Obviously, Nazis went fascism generally.
我的研究对象是关于丹宁法西斯主义。尽管丹宁法西斯主义没有得到太多公共关注，但纳粹主义一般被视为法西斯主义的代表。
So I think it's a question of trying to find a general area that's going to resonate. And then have an interesting angle on it. And one that normally has some kind of personal dimension, whether it's a biography, in the case of my book, using Dares ordinary people to engage the general readers, as well as to shed light on, on a period.
我认为这是一个需要尝试找到一个广泛领域的问题，以产生共鸣。随后需要有一个有趣的角度来呈现。通常这种角度都有一些个人维度，例如我书中的传记，使用Dares来吸引一般读者，同时也为某个时期提供一些启示。
Yes, and in Christopher's book The Voices, the fascist voices are what lead you in. And I think as historians, we're trying to evoke the past and trying to take, trying to imaginatively recreate the past and to take our readers into this world, which is known or less known to them and to introduce them to characters.
是的，在克里斯托弗的书《The Voices》中，法西斯主义的声音是引导你进入其中的。作为历史学家，我们试图唤起过去，试图想象地重新创造过去，并带领我们的读者进入这个为他们所知或不为人知的世界，并介绍给他们人物角色。
And to ask the question, were they like us? And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes really not. Yes, it's true. And I think you're inviting your reader to, in a sense, to put yourself in the shoes of your characters and say, as you're right, say, Susan, I mean, would I have acted differently? What would I have done? How much is this a different world from the world I experienced? How much is it similar?
提出这个问题，他们和我们一样吗？有时候答案是肯定的，有时候则不是。是的，这是真的。我认为你是在邀请你的读者在某种意义上将自己置身于你的角色中，问自己，如果我是苏珊，我会有不同的行为吗？我会做什么？这个世界与我经历的世界有多不同？有多相似？
And very often it is, there are elements of similarity, elements of difference. But I think it is, as Susan says, this transporting the reader to a different place, a different time, and to try and reconstruct using one's imagination, as well as one's sources, a different world. A different world in which people can probably see themselves, as well as see differences. I think that's important.
通常情况下会有相似的元素和不同的元素。但是，我认为正如苏珊所说，这是将读者带到另一个地方、另一个时间，试图重建一个不同的世界，用自己的想象力和资料，一个人可以看到自己，同时也可以看到不同之处。我认为这很重要。
And, you know, books that have, history books have, have, have a great success, can often be on quite, you know, remote countries or remote periods. I've been very successful books, looking at, you know, China and the Far East in, in, so earlier periods or whatever. So, it's a question I think of trying to recreate as fully as possible the emotional moral, intellectual texture of a period.
你知道，历史书籍通常会涉及一些较为偏远的国家或时间段，但它们也往往非常成功。我看过很多非常成功的书籍，研究中国和远东地区的早期历史等。因此，我认为问题在于尽可能全面地再现一个时期的情感、道德和智力特质。
And that can, and then, when you've got people there, you can draw your reader in, I think, and hopefully get them emotionally engaged in the subject. And I think we're trying to, there is such a thing as a historian's truth. We're really trying to discover what happened. We're seeing history, I suppose, often sequentially. We're trying, we're, we're, we're, I mean, history is a story and it, and to present it, thus is not to do, to reduce the past, but to make it real and to do that and to present a story you've got to be writing in a way that one sentence follows from another and that you entice your reader to read on.
当你有了读者之后，你可以吸引他们，让他们对主题产生情感共鸣。我认为，我们试图发现真相，历史上确实存在历史学家的真相。我们通常按时间顺序看待历史。我们试图把历史呈现为一个故事，这并不是为了减少过去，而是要使它变得真实。为了呈现一个故事，你必须以一种句子跟随另一种句子的方式撰写，并且吸引读者阅读下去。
It's, I mean, the best historians have always tried to, tried to do that. So, do you feel successful popular history works more because of the way it's written than say the topic that's been chosen or perhaps the sources that have been used? Is it really the writing that really makes work of history come alive? Yes, I think so because I mean, you could write a, a, an article of rebarbitive pedimentry on the most interesting historical subject, the rise of Mussolini or the death of Ann Bolin.
这是最好的历史学家一直试图做的事情。那么，您是否认为成功的通俗历史作品更多是因为它的书写方式，而不是被选择的主题或使用的来源呢？它是否真的是书写方式让历史作品变得有生命力？是的，我认为是因为，我的意思是，您可以对最有趣的历史主题，如墨索里尼的崛起或安·博林的死亡，进行沉闷的授权文章。
But you could also write something fascinating about something that wasn't, you know, in itself appealing. I mean, you know, to tell the story of a Netsuke like Edmund de Valdas isn't an obvious, isn't an obvious blow, but it's a story of extraordinary attraction. And it's that different angle, as you said, the here the Ambrace was just so unusual that you got in through the Netsuke and it opened up a whole world of late 19th century France and, you know, all the issues that came up with the Jewish question late 19th century and early 20th century as well. So it's having this sort of door, interesting door that opens and I mean, you also, it is the writing in a sense, you know, the prose has got to be as engaging and vivid as possible.
但你也可以写一些关于某些不具吸引力的事情的迷人内容。我的意思是，比如讲述一个像爱德蒙德·德瓦尔达斯那样的小型日本花扣并不是一种显而易见、明显的内容，但它却是一个非常吸引人的故事。正像你所说的那样，因为这个独特的角度，这里的Ambrace非常非同寻常，你可以通过这个小玩意打开19世纪后期法国的整个世界，还涉及到19世纪末和20世纪初犹太问题等所有问题。因此，它就像是一个开启有趣世界大门的东西。同时，文笔也必须尽可能地吸引人，生动形象。
But I think probably more important is just having this rather different angle and being able to open up this, this, this extraordinary world. And sometimes just the range of sources can itself be intriguing and one thing that, you know, I was, was an aura of in Susan's book is just how in what detail you could reconstruct events in 1527 or whatever it is through traces. And that itself was fascinating just thinking that my god, in 400 and 500 years ago, we can, you know, we can reconstruct a daily basis, a horse ride going cross through France to back to London. It's really quite exciting. So there's something about the source themselves that can be quite intriguing, I think, and Kezmibok, I was using Dares, but also secret police reports and so on. I guess that must have a certain free soul for the reader as well, which can make it attractive.
但我认为更重要的是，拥有这种不同的角度，并能够打开这个非凡的世界。有时候，来源的范围本身就能引起人的好奇心。在苏珊的书中，一个令人着迷的地方在于，通过痕迹，你可以详细地重建发生在1527年或其他时间的事件。这本身就是令人着迷的，想到在400或500年前，我们可以重建日常事件，例如穿过法国回到伦敦的骑马旅行。这真的非常令人兴奋。所以，我认为源的本身也是令人非常着迷的，而凯兹米博克使用了代尔斯、秘密警察报告等来源。我想这对于读者来说也有一定的吸引力。
You also, I mean, there's the kind of history where you continue a debate within the academy. So you say, dog and says, but I say and then, you know, and somebody else says. And that in a way is to is is I think that belongs to the historical journal and that's the world of the academy for the for history to be accessible. I think you have to have two parallel stories in a way. There's the story above the line, which is after what given it in the decline and fall of the text for his readers. And then below the line are the footnotes and those of the historians or the scholars who really want to follow the tracks and see the proofs.
还有一种历史，那就是在学术界里进行辩论。你说“狗”，我说“猫”，另外一位说了别的。但这种辩论只适用于历史期刊或学术界。如果历史要被大众所了解，我认为必须有两个并行的故事。一是我们常在教科书里看到的正统历史，是为了更容易被读者理解而精简过的。另一个则是脚注里的内容，是针对那些想要追溯证据的历史学家或学者的。
But if once you start introducing the sources very palpably into the text or the names of your fellow scholars upon whom you rely tremendously, then you break the spell in a way and it's no longer, you're no longer simply in the 16th century or in the 21st century. So that's why you choose as your writing something. You always find your own your voice that tries to fit the story that you're telling. I mean, given describes the voice that he has to find to the historian of the Roman of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire has to find.
但如果你在文本内明显地引入了资源或依赖的学者的姓名，那么你会以某种方式打破了一种魔力，它不再是你只是处于16世纪或21世纪。所以你选择作为你写作的东西。你总是会发现属于自己的声音，试图符合你正在讲述的故事。我的意思是，吉文需要找到一种声音，来描述罗马帝国衰落和灭亡的历史学家必须找到。
And all of us, you know, not not to compare ourselves to given, but we have to find a voice that suits the story we're telling, I suppose.
我们中的每个人，你知道的，不要把自己与别人比较，但我们必须找到适合我们讲述故事的声音，我想。
Do you too, when you're writing, do you have a picture of the reader in mind at all?
在写作时，你是否也会想象出一个读者的形象呢？这样做会让你更加明确目标。
Yes, I do. I imagine my friends or I imagine my undergraduates or the, because after all, we're teachers before where, I mean, that's how he's been most of our time. The writing is done in vacations or in time stolen from other things that we should be doing. So it's the, I imagine the undergraduates, particularly ones who study, in particular courses with me.
是的，我想象我的朋友们或者我的本科生们。因为毕竟我们是老师，那是我们大部分时间的工作。写作通常是在假期或从我们应该做的其他事情中偷出来的时间。所以我想象我的本科生，特别是那些和我一起上课的学生们。
Yes, I think you always have readers in mind and sometimes a little bit schizophrenic because you're aware of your academic colleagues hovering over your shoulder and there as Susan said, you make sure that your footnets indicate that you, you know, too know your sources and you have read the latest articles or latest books on your subject. But then you've got, you know, the so-called general reader, perhaps, hovering over your shoulder.
是的，我认为你总是考虑读者，有时会有点分裂。因为你知道你的学术同行会关注你的写作，就像Susan说的那样，你会确保你引用的来源表明你已经阅读过关于这个话题的最新文章或书籍。但是，你也会有所谓的普通读者关注你的写作。
And then, yes, students, I mean, my last but not the one I've, this one, of Ash's voices, but I was in slightly sort of caught between wanting to engage with general reader, somebody who might be going to Italy on holiday for a couple of weeks and wants to have general access to the world. But at the same time, thinking of undergraduate students and what they might like from something with slightly more of a textbook feel.
然后，是的，我指的是学生，我的上一本书不是这本，而是Ash的声音，但我有些犹豫，同时想要与一般读者展开互动，这些读者可能会去意大利度假几个星期，想要了解世界的概况。但同时，我也在考虑本科生，他们希望从有些像教科书般的书籍中获取更多信息。
So in case of that book, which I published five, six years ago, I sort of hovered between a sort of general narrative that might engage the general reader and something that might be used to undergraduates as well. So yes, you're always aware of your audience, I think.
所以在我五六年前出版的那本书中，我在一般叙述和适合大学本科学生使用的内容之间犹豫不决。所以，我认为你总是要注意你的读者群体。
And, yes, certainly with this book, Ash's voices, you know, I was conscious of addressing, you know, a major area of historical debate among professional historians, the degree to which there was consensus or support for the fashion regime in Italy more broadly, support for fascism in Europe. You have the same time wanting partly because it's not, you know, Italian fascism and not so well known as say, Nazism, to try and draw in a bigger public and say, look, there's a lot that we can learn from Italy. You know, please read this book and start thinking about about, about fashion Italy and don't just focus all the time on Nazi German as a lot to be learned from other countries as well.
当然，这本书中的Ash的声音让我意识到历史学家之间存在的重要争议，即在意大利更广泛的时尚政权支持以及在欧洲对法西斯主义的支持程度方面存在的一致性或支持度。同时，由于它既不是意大利法西斯主义，也不像纳粹主义那样广为人知，所以我也想吸引更多的公众来阅读，并说看，我们可以从意大利学习很多东西。请阅读这本书，开始思考一下意大利时尚，而不是一直关注纳粹德国，还有其他国家也有很多可以学习的。
Are there any potential pitfalls when writing this kind of popular history that there are a danger of sacrificing kind of the academic integrity or not really dealing with the scholarship properly? Is it hard to balance the two sides to the work?
在写这种流行史时，有没有可能存在潜在的陷阱，比如牺牲学术诚信或未能妥善处理学术成果？很难平衡这两个方面的工作吗？
I think if you've got a publisher that lets you have as many footnotes as you like, then you can have two books really. You can have your scholarly book below the line and then you can have your book that isn't so robust if I suppose that people might want to read and find, you know, the world that you're painting for them. But I suppose that within the academy people might despise you for writing in a more popular way.
如果你有一个出版商允许你使用很多脚注，那么你可以拥有两本书。你可以在下方写你的学术书，然后再写一本不那么严谨的书，这样读者可能更想看到你为他们描绘的世界。但是我认为学术界的人可能会鄙视你以更通俗的方式写作。
And, well, you know, that's their problem as far as I can stand because I think historians have got a duty really to make important subjects known. I mean, I wouldn't make great claims for writing about Thomas Watt as containing, you know, huge truths in modern politics. But to read Christopher Dougins' book and to think about the possibilities of, you know, the resurgence of right wing groups within Europe or to think about the silences there are in Italy about the past. It's really to see that duty, I think.
嗯，你知道，据我所知，这是他们的问题，因为我认为历史学家真正有责任让重要的主题为大众所知。我的意思是，我不会为撰写关于托马斯·瓦特的书籍而声称其中包含现代政治上的巨大真理。但是，阅读克里斯托弗·道金斯的书籍并思考右翼团体在欧洲重新崛起的可能性，或者思考意大利过去的遗忘，这些都是历史学家的责任。
Yeah, I think I'm the issue of whether you feel compromised. I mean, it is a balancing act all the time when I think as Susan says, you can use things like footnotes or in my case, I, you know, is an introduction. I try to address the issues which the book touched on in terms of academic debates, the extent to which fascism was was not a political religion or whatever. So you can be clear that you're conscious of these things.
是的，我认为我是你是否感到妥协的问题。我的意思是，这是一个平衡的行为，就像苏珊所说的那样，你可以使用注脚或者像我这样的自我介绍。我尝试解决书中涉及的学术辩论问题，例如法西斯主义是不是一种政治宗教等。这样你就可以清楚地表明你对这些事情有意识。
But I think as Susan says, I mean, the important thing in a way with so many topics is to try and generate debate. I mean, you know, as I can imagine, we know there are no different advances. There are always debates and the debates keep on, not, not. But the important thing is to keep those debates alive and to keep people questioning, thinking, challenging and so on.
但是我认为正如苏珊所说的那样，在涉及到如此多的话题时，重要的是尝试激起争论。我是说，你知道，我可以想象，我们知道没有不同的先进技术，总会有争议，争论会继续下去，不会停止。但重要的是保持这些争论的活跃，并让人们不断质疑、思考和挑战等等。
I think the one thing I wanted to do in my book is to say, well, this is what the evidence suggests. I can't tell you definitively the degree to which, you know, 40, 45 million Italians really bought into fascism or really supported muslims. There's no way you can come up objectively and answer that. Here's some evidence. Here are various, here are private letters, here are secret police reports, which indicate that a lot of people were emotionally really engaged with fascism, really engaged, certainly with Mussolini. I can't tell you exactly what that says about levels of consent or support. But let's at least start thinking about it, discussing it, and get over silences because one of the, you said there's so many areas of history.
我认为我写这本书最想做的一件事就是说，这就是证据所表明的。我无法明确地告诉你，40到45百万意大利人真正信仰法西斯主义或真正支持穆斯林的程度。没有客观的方法来回答这个问题。这里有一些证据。这里有各种各样的私人信件和秘密警察报告，表明许多人对法西斯主义和墨索里尼感情上非常投入。我无法告诉你这对同意或支持的程度意味着什么。但是让我们至少开始思考、讨论一下，克服沉默，因为你说历史的许多领域都存在这种情况。
This goes, I guess, for areas of British history, but certainly for large areas of European history, the 20th century, where there has been a lot of silence. I'm just finishing Paul Preston's great book on the Spanish Holocaust. Clearly, there has been a huge amount of silence in Spain, but exactly the level of brutality and killings in 936 to 37 in Spain. Paul gives a figure of, because on 200,000 people killed. Clearly, the way he's writing this book is to say, well, look, we've got to confront this, because it has not been confronted. What we've got in Spain is rather than nine images of Franco, somebody who restored order, ultimately 96th is gay, Spain, the foundations for its economic recovery, that's a little bit more suspect now. But there's been silence, and I think one of the things that Susan and I and other historians want to reach out with Claude Pope would like to do is just to open up areas and not be fully discussed, fully thought about, and just get people talking.
对于英国历史和欧洲历史的大部分领域，在20世纪存在许多沉默。我正在结束保罗·普雷斯顿（Paul Preston）关于西班牙大屠杀的精彩书籍。显然，在西班牙存在很多的沉默，但是在1936年到1937年期间发生的暴行和屠杀的确切规模。保罗给出的数字是20万人被杀。显然，他写这本书的方式是要说，嗯，看，我们必须面对这个问题，因为它还没有得到解决。在西班牙，我们得到的不是弗朗哥九张照片，而是一个最终让西班牙恢复秩序、为其经济复苏奠定基础的人，这一点现在有些可疑。但是存在沉默，我认为Susan和我以及其他历史学家想要做的事情就是打开未被充分讨论、充分思考的领域，让人们开始交流。
There are no final answers, but there is debate. That's what we want to encourage. Do you both feel that it's important that the academic historians, like yourself, get involved in the popular history market and don't just leave it to the kind of these little amateur historians and historical novelists and people like that, but you have a voice, because there is a lot of popular history being written by non-academics. Is it important to have you, people like you in the mix as well?
虽然没有最终的答案，但可以进行探讨。这就是我们想要鼓励的。你们是否认为，像你们这样的学术历史学家参与流行历史市场很重要，而不只是让这些小业余历史学家和历史小说家之类的人参与，而是你们有发言权，因为很多流行历史是由非学术人员撰写的。在人们中间有像你们这样的人也很重要吗？
Well, I suppose the Tudor period is the one that is a period of great glamour and destiny and lots of people want to write about it. And it also has a historical novel of genius writing about it, which is Hillary Mantell. And I think that her powers of imagination and her sort of searing intelligence are just extraordinary. And I think actually that she wrote the best two pages that have been written or will be written about Thomas Wyatt. And I'm glad that I read, bring up the bodies after I finish my book, but it's still true that we, historians who are out there on the front line in the archives need to be writing our histories too. It gives them more material, but our truths are different from theirs in a way where I think that Hillary Mantell is looking for and finding historical truth, but in a different way than I am. I don't reveal people who are writing a kind of what I might call faction, which is halfway between true history and fiction, which is a kind of easy, facile enterprise, which is a kind of historical path that doesn't have to do with truth or hard thinking.
我认为，都铎时期是一个充满魅力、命运和许多人都想写的时期。而许多杰出的历史小说家也写过关于这一时期的作品，其中希拉里·曼特尔是其中的天才作家。我认为她的想象力和扣人心弦的智慧优秀异常。实际上，我认为她写的关于托马斯·怀亚特（Thomas Wyatt）的两页是迄今为止最好的，也将是最好的两页。 我很高兴我在完成自己的书之后读了《时局风云》，但事实仍然如此：我们这些在档案馆前线的历史学家也需要写我们的历史。这会为作家提供更多的素材，但是我们的真相与他们的不同，我认为希拉里·曼特尔正在寻找和发现历史真相，但以不同的方式，我认为写一种介于真实历史和小说之间的所谓的“ faction ”的人是不必透露的，这是一种简单、轻率的企业，与真相或深思熟虑无关。
I think it's absolutely true and I agree with you on that. I think historical novels are one thing and there's a kind of truth you can get from those, which is wonderful. I think there is a danger with historical books that claim to be serious history, but which are not written from a standpoint or with a rigor that the profession storeans would prove of. I think they can be dangerous because the reader will pick those up at a book shop or at a port of whatever it is. The blurb on the book will say the truth about, I don't know, muscling is execution, exposed, whatever it is. They'll read it and say, my God, this is history, this is the truth. And yet, as historians were acutely aware that this is just an absolute nonsense and certain cases of my subject in Italian fascism or in the Italian history, in one Italian history in general, I'm aware, particularly perhaps in Italy, there's a whole huge industry of writings by people who are not professional historians, but who write books which claim to be history, which have huge readership. And they really worry me.
我认为这是绝对正确的，我同意你的看法。我认为历史小说是一回事，你可以从中获得一种真理，这是很棒的。我认为那些自称为严肃历史的历史书籍存在危险，因为它们并非通过专业的角度或如同专业人士所要求的严谨性来编写。我认为它们很危险，因为读者会在书店或任何其他地方拿起这些书。书本上的说明会声称这是真相，无论是关于肌肉被处决问题，还是任何其他内容。读者会说：“天哪，这是历史，这是真相。”然而，正如我们这些历史学家所知，这是一种绝对的胡说八道，在意大利法西斯主义或意大利历史中存在一些例子，我对此感到非常清醒，特别是在意大利，有许多非专业历史学家写的书籍声称自己是历史，但实际上并非如此。这让我真的很担心。
I mean, just mentioned the execution of muscling. There are so many books backed up then by so-called documentaries on television, in Italy, which claim that muscling was assassinating the orders of Winston Churchill or whatever it is. You know, without any serious evidence for this and those kind of works can do, I think, very serious damage. And I think we have a duetisis story to try and counter that by being absolutely clear about sources, showing people how you approach truth in a word of commerce, I mean, the far-smart established truth, but by being as faithful as possible to the sources. And with a degree of accessibility that allows you then, hopefully to try and counter some of the more dangerous and corrosive material that is out there.
我的意思是，仅仅提到了行刑。在意大利，有很多所谓的电视纪录片以及书籍声称，肌肉被执行是温斯顿·丘吉尔的命令或者其他什么。但是，这些作品没有任何严肃的证据，会对真相造成很严重的伤害。我认为我们需要借着自己的故事，试图通过清晰的呈现信息来源的方式，展示人们如何在商业世界中去接近真相。我指的是，要追求真实，信任来源，并以一种易于理解的方式呈现，这样我们就有希望试图打败某些更危险和有腐蚀性的信息。
There are some historians, and I suppose people in many fields who feel a little bit snobby about the idea of popular history, but you think that what you're saying shows the importance of academics engaging with popular history because otherwise the public will be at the mercy of amateurs and charlatans. And so, if academic historians were to just be in their ivory tower, it could be quite dangerous to the public understanding overall.
有些历史学家，以及我想许多领域的人对通俗历史的概念有点歧视，但你认为你所表达的内容显示了学术界参与通俗历史的重要性，否则公众只能受到业余人士和骗子的束缚。因此，如果学术历史学家只呆在象牙塔里，对于公众的整体理解来说可能是相当危险的。
Well, I think there is a place for really quite difficult history just written in a very bleak way conducted in professional journals. And some historians are writing the sorts of history that fits best in that kind of medium. But for those of us who are writing about very exciting periods, it doesn't seem to me that there's any problem about writing for a general audience. I mean, historians, you know, words are our weapon in a way. And if you can't write appealingly, then your sword is forever un-sheathed, your argument is not properly made. I mean, it's a very complicated matter often, but it needn't be explained in terms of obfuscation. You can write complex truths in a appealing way, I think.
我认为有些历史是非常困难的，可以写得非常沉闷，适合在专业期刊中发表。而有些历史学家正在写出这种中等难度的历史。但对于我们这些写有趣期间的历史的人来说，并不觉得为广大读者写作有任何问题。我想说，历史学家的武器是文字。如果你写得不够吸引人，则你的剑永远不会出鞘，你的论点也不会得到充分的阐述。虽然这通常是一个非常复杂的问题，但也不必为之而混淆。我认为，你可以以吸引人的方式写出复杂的真相。
I think that's very important. I think it's also something that British historiography has been very good at for many decades and even centuries. And I think of the situation in Italy, which is also the country that I work on primarily. And in Italy, it is very, very rare indeed to find a professional historian who can engage or indeed wants to engage the general public. There is a very strong sense I find in Italy that if you are accessible, then sometimes somehow you're not a serious historian, which may be one reason why, and I'm very grateful for this, that British historians do get widely translated in Italy and can reach relatively broad public.
我认为这非常重要。我认为英国史学研究在许多十年甚至几个世纪都非常擅长这方面。我也想到了意大利，那也是我主要工作的国家。在意大利，非常非常罕见找到一位能够或者愿意接触普通大众的专业历史学家。我发现在意大利存在一种非常强烈的观念，就是如果你容易接近，那么有时你就不是一位认真的历史学家。这也可能是为什么英国历史学家在意大利很受欢迎并且可以接触相对广泛的公众的原因之一，我为此非常感激。
But I think it is hugely important and the historians can reach broad publics, I mean, that sounds sort of too pompous on this, but from the point of view of democracy, it is crucial important that there is constant debate, constant engagement with not just contemporary issues, but with what's happened in the past, particularly with things like fascism, that we are open, we will discuss these, whereas I see in Italy that the inability, very often, of historians to engage with a general part of broader public on serious issues like fascism, Mussolini, so on leaves, as I said earlier, the way open to pseudo-historians or to sensationalizing documentary makers to present a very distorted picture of the past, which can have very dangerous implications.
我认为历史学家能够接触广大群众是非常重要的。我知道这个看起来有些自大，但从民主的角度来看，这是至关重要的。与当代问题一样，对于过去发生的事情，特别是法西斯主义这样的问题，不断的讨论和参与是至关重要的。然而，在意大利，我发现历史学家往往不能与更广泛的公众就像法西斯主义、墨索里尼等严肃问题展开讨论，这导致我们留下了众多的误解和危险的局面。因此，我们必须敞开心扉讨论这些问题，避免伪历史学家和煽情的纪录片制作者歪曲历史，这会带来非常危险的后果。
So I think historians do have, I mean, duty sounds a little bit serious, but I think there is a real role within democracy, it's part of the broader debate to make sure that wider public as possible is brought into discussions about the past, as well as the present. It's part of the wider debate about how history should be taught in schools after all, and it's a matter of great controversy, and I think there are politicians and people who are in charge of education, who really do recognize that without a knowledge of history that you're forever a child, that you are condemned to repeat the errors of the past, and if you don't know the past.
所以，我认为历史学家有一个责任，虽然使用“责任”这个词有点严肃，但我认为在民主中有一个真正的角色，它是让尽可能广泛的公众参与到对过去和现在的讨论中的一部分。毕竟，这是关于如何在学校教授历史的广泛辩论，这是一件非常有争议的事情，我认为有些政治家和负责教育的人们真正认识到如果没有历史知识，你将永远是一个孩子，你注定重蹈过去的错误，而如果你不知道过去，你就无法为未来做好准备。
I know I think that perhaps it does sound rather portentous, but I think that historians do have a humane influence, especially in a liberal democracy, I think in America too, there's a tradition of writing history in a popular way, which matters, and of course the audience there is enormous. Now I realize you've both written on very different subjects clearly, but do you see any parallels between your two books?
我知道这句话可能听起来有点夸大其词，但我认为历史学家确实有人道影响，特别是在自由民主国家。我觉得在美国也存在一种以通俗方式编写历史的传统，这很重要，当然，那里的观众数量也非常庞大。现在我意识到你们两个写的主题明显非常不同，但你们是否看到你们两本书之间的相似之处？
Well, both engage with real people and try to bring a life alive world they lived in. I think one thing that I found very striking about Susan's book was the geographical breadth, and what I really enjoyed about, one of the many other things, is the way that the Reformation in England was brought into a European context, in the way that the Court of Energy Eighth and people like Wyatt were part of this broader European culture, and also European politics, the extent to which, you know, energy eight was desperately trying to lever himself into position of influence in Europe generally, and ultimately I suppose rather failing, which I guess is the sign of things to come to the next four centuries, also in terms of relation with Europe.
两本书都涉及到真实的人物，并试图呈现他们生活的世界。我认为苏珊的书让我感到特别震撼的一件事是其涉及的地理范围，而我真正喜欢的东西之一是英国的宗教改革被放置在欧洲的背景下，如英王亨利八世和怀亚特等人是这个更广泛的欧洲文化和欧洲政治的一部分。可以看出，亨利八世极力想在整个欧洲范围内获得影响力地位，但最终似乎没有成功，这或许也预示着未来四个世纪与欧洲关系的趋势。
And I think that European dimension to Susan's book, and the fact that my book is about Italy, does reflect, I think a very important strand in British historography, that there is such a strong tradition in this country of books being written about how the country is, what it looks back through the list of prize winners for the Wilson Prize. In the last 40 or so years, huge number of these books have been about non-British subjects, books that deal with America or aspects of European countries, or the Far East, or India, whatever it is. And I think that is something that is very, very significant about British historography, something a little bit under threat, I mean, a lot of debate about this last of 10, 15, 20 years, about the problem of languages. But you know, Susan had to look at archives in Spain and Italy, Germany, without language skills, we're going to lose that ability, and the danger is might lose something very distinctive about British historography.
我认为苏珊的书中涉及到的欧洲维度以及我的书讲述了意大利，这表明了英国历史学研究中非常重要的一条脉络。在这个国家，有一种强烈的传统，那就是写书来描绘它是如何的，它是什么样子的。回顾威尔逊奖的获奖者名单，过去大约40年里，其中有大量的书涉及到非英国的主题，这些书探讨了美国或欧洲国家的方方面面，或是远东或印度等地区。我认为这是英国历史学研究中非常重要的一点，也是一点有些受到威胁的东西。毕竟在过去的10、15或20年里，对语言问题的讨论非常多，有一种危险就是我们失去了这种能力，可能会失去一些有关英国历史学研究的独具特色的东西。苏珊不得不查阅西班牙、意大利、德国的档案，如果没有语言技能，我们可能会失去这种能力，这个危险是我们务必要注意。
And I suppose one of the things that links the books to is the sense of the voices of people who are making very hard moral choices and times of great uncertainty and danger, and looking for leadership, or looking for a sense of a politics to be trusted and a sense of the truth. And a sense of, you know, a nation whose path is, you know, there are certain paths to be taken. So those things might link them as well.
我认为一件将这些书联系起来的事情是它们都传达了面对巨大不确定性和危险时做出艰难的道德选择的人们的声音，这些人渴望领袖，渴望可信的政治和真相。同时，这些书也呈现了一个国家的道路：这些道路需要采取一些特定的路径。因此，这些因素也让这些书之间产生了联系。
Something that I was thinking in a very clear, quite a loose sense is you've, in both sense, you've got people trying to deal with quite a sort of difficult regime. You've got Henry VIII, sort of a very hard to gauge how he's going to react to things and also quite a dangerous man to cross, and similarly with Mussolini, if you fell on the wrong side of it, which was quite easy to do, you could come across quite easily. Are there any parallels between the Tudor Court and the Fascist Court, so to speak? Was that actually too far?
我在思考的一个清晰而又宽泛的想法是，你在两个意义上都有人们试图应对相当困难的体制。你有亨利八世，很难衡量他对事情的反应，而且是一个相当危险的人，同样的是墨索里尼，如果你站错了位置（这很容易发生），你很容易就会遭受打击。都铎王朝和法西斯法庭之间有什么相似之处呢？那是不是太远了呢？
Well, I think there probably are in terms of, I mean, both the Felisol authoritarian regimes, and I think it's interesting to see how people respond emotionally psychologically to these kinds of regimes, and wanting to restruct me looking at the diaries of ordinary people in Fascitly or their letters. Is the willingness to suspend critical judgment about the leader, and the desire to want to believe the leader is somebody who is on your side who's going to help you to be good and so on, and the amount of emotional psychological investment in that, and the way in which you, you know, you put aside critical judgment. I was very struck with Susan's book when, looking at Cromwell's fall in 1540, how it seems so brutally unjust, and yet Cromwell doesn't say to Henry how dare you do this, he says, I'm sorry I betrayed you, or what I mean.
我认为在费利索尔威权政权方面可能存在着某些问题。我觉得有趣的是看到人们在面对这种政权时的情绪和心理反应，以及他们想要重组的欲望。通过查看法西斯主义国家普通人的日记或信件，我们可以看到，人们愿意搁置对领导者的批评判断，并希望相信领导者是站在你这边的人，帮助你变得更好等。这种情感和心理上的投入以及他们放弃批判性的判断方式让人印象深刻。当我看到苏珊的书时，我被她对查理一世于1540年的垮台的观察所震撼。这看起来如此的残酷不公，然而克伦威尔并没有责怪亨利，他说：“对不起，我背叛了你”，或者我是这个意思。
And, you know, I find in the case of Mussolini how extraordinary it is that even highly intelligent people who conceive that the racial laws, the alliance with Germany and the entry into the war in 1940 is, you know, inhumane and just wrong. Yet at the same time they do not want to lose their faith in Mussolini. I mean, one very struck by an extraordinary of a very intelligent student, physics student from the University of part of her, who, you know, one moment can say, you know, why is most introduced in racial laws, they're iniquitous.
你知道吗，在墨索里尼这个案例中，我发现即便是那些高度聪明的人也认为种族法律、与德国的联盟以及1940年的参战是不人道的、错误的行为，但他们不想失去对墨索里尼的信任。我想说的是，我非常震惊一个来自某大学物理系的聪明学生，她一会儿会说，为什么墨索里尼要制定种族法律，这太不公正了。
Why are my professors from university being sad, just because they're Jews? The next minute she can record in a diary has sensitive exhilaration going to hear Mussolini give a speech and be proud of herself that she still has faith in the duce. So it's something very, I think both books say something very curious about how people deal with power, particularly strong power. And what you do, I mean, we all imagine that faced with horrendous choices like in Third Reich or whatever, we'd all say, no, we wouldn't, you know, send the Jews to gas chambers. But you become aware that when you're faced with power that you play very curious games emotionally psychologically with yourself, in order perhaps just to keep on living and to think that you're making the right choices.
我为什么的大学教授因为他们是犹太人而感到悲伤？她马上可以在日记中记录下感性的兴奋，因为她去听了墨索里尼的演讲，并且为她依然相信总督而感到自豪。因此，我认为这两本书对于人们如何处理权力，特别是强大的权力，都提出了非常有趣的观点。当你面对像第三帝国这样可怕的选择时，我们都想象自己会说“不”，不会将犹太人送入毒气室。但是你会意识到当你面对权力时，你会在情感和心理上玩弄非常奇特的游戏，可能只是为了继续生存并认为你正在做出正确的选择。
And I suppose even at the court of a tyrant who are still hoping that by your counsel you might try and speak truth to power, but of course that's much harder to do than to talk about. And I suppose my book is about people who are quite close to this, who are very close to this problem there, making these moral choices that at court and trying to make sure that they come, you know, they come out as clean as they went into the world. But if that doesn't happen, that they're tainted, everybody who lives, who countenance is those regimes is tainted by them.
我想，即使在一个暴君的法庭上，你仍然希望通过你的建议试着说出真相，但当然，这比谈论要难得多。我想，我的书是关于那些非常接近这个问题的人们的，他们在法庭上做出这些道德选择，并努力确保他们像进入世界时那样清白。但是如果这并没有发生，他们会被污染，每个生活在那些政权下的人都会被它们污染。
And in both books, you have, well, particularly in yours, but also in yours, Christopher, you have a central character who is still quite an elusive character. Do you feel that you're able to get to the bottom of them, finally after writing these books? I think sometimes in my dark moments, I thought that there was a sort of wire shaped hole in the middle of my book and that I could evoke the world around him. I could hold up his poetry. It's a kind of mirror of his times, but that he was evading me.
在这两本书中，你们都有一个非常难以捉摸的主角，特别是在你的书中，克里斯托弗，你觉得写完这些书后，你能够最终洞察他们的本质吗？在我最黑暗的时刻里，我觉得我的书中有一个铁线形状的空洞，而我只能勾勒出他周围的世界。我可以展示他的诗歌，它是他所处时代的一面镜子，但他总是躲避我。
They said at the time of wire that he speaks fine words until he's more sure of you. And I think that sometimes I felt I was getting the fine words. But this is a man who in his letter to his son, a very revealing letter to his son at a time, perhaps when he thought he might not see him again, talks, talks to his son, Thomas about gathering himself to have a gathered self. To know himself. But with Thomas Wyatt, the elder, I found so many selves, there were, you know, there was Wyatt, the Christian Stoic, and then Wyatt, the murderer, and then Wyatt, the sort of trolling Wyatt, who'd write courtly verse and Wyatt, who was also the paraphrase of the seven penitential Psalms. And he's a courtier who says that he's not going to flatter and then we find him flattering. And so he's a figure of such complexity that he was always elusive. And I think I, if I left him still elusive, then I didn't too much to reduce him. But there's, so I present these selves. But that I guess is the reality of all human beings, the end of the sound to pompous. But there are so many different layers.
当时人们说他说了些高雅的话，直到他更加了解你，我想有时我也感觉他在对我说高雅的话。但是这位男士在给儿子写信时，一封非常令人深思的信，或许他认为可能再也见不到他的时候，他谈到对自我进行整合，了解自我。但是对于Wyatt父亲，我发现他有很多重要身份：基督教的stoic，杀人者，写出宫廷诗的善于搞笑的Wyatt，还是七首悔罪诗的释义者Wyatt。他是一个说他不会谄媚的宫廷人却最终谄媚的人。因此，他是一个非常复杂的人物，总是难以捉摸。我认为如果我让他仍然难以捉摸，那就没有太多地简化他。但是事实上，这是所有人类的现实，这听起来有点浮夸，但是人类有很多层面。
And I think, you know, one thing I found was doing research in Mussolini, but also I think looking at responses of ordinary people to Mussolini, I mean, everyone is is, is multi-led and, and, you know, I said at one point, I think that I could well imagine somebody in it, writing a fusive letter to me. And I said, I'm a fusive letter to Mussolini saying, duché, I believe in you, you are my god on earth, I love you, et cetera, et cetera. And if you ask later in a bar over a drink with a colleague saying, oh, Mussolini is an idiot, isn't he, and so on. So, we all do that in various ways, where we're also contradictory and complex.
我认为，通过研究墨索里尼，以及观察普通受众对墨索里尼的反应，我发现一件事情，那就是大家都是多元化的。我曾说过，我可以想象一个人在写一封对我充满热情的信时，也可以写一封对墨索里尼充满热情的信，信中说“统治，我相信你，你是我的上帝，我爱你”，但之后在酒吧里对同事说“墨索里尼是白痴，对吧？”这就是我们以各种方式表达矛盾且复杂的事情。
And certainly in the case of Mussolini. And then, you know, when you see somebody who was playing so many different roles in the end, in a way that I don't think he could disengage the actor from from the real self, you somebody who, you know, saw himself always whether in front of large crowds or in front of individuals as playing roles, and even with, we recently got access to the diaries of his, as longstanding and famous on a tourist mistress, Clarata Patacci, who record in huge details, exactly what Mussolini said on a day-to-day basis to her. But you get this strong impression there that he is playing a part as much as any other time. He is, you know, if that's what he's sort of 25, 30 years old, and her playing sort of, you know, the great man in front of her and boasting and showing off and so on, so forth. But that in the end is much part of him, a real part of him, as any central, you know, truth, if you like, Mussolini, let's say, like so many people is just playing lots and lots of different roles.
当然，这在墨索里尼的情况下尤其明显。当你看到一个人在扮演如此多不同的角色时，从最终的结果来看，我认为他无法将演员和真实自我的分离，你就会发现，他总是把自己看作是在扮演角色，无论是在大众面前还是在个人面前。我们最近获得了他著名的旅游情妇Clarata Patacci的日记，并记录了他每天向她说的话。但你会感到他一直在扮演角色。如果他是25、30岁时，他会向她炫耀和炫耀，像一个伟大的人一样表现得很出色。但到最后，这同样是他的真实一部分，正如所有人一样，墨索里尼只是扮演了很多不同的角色。
And I think that's something that, you know, works like Susan's or Pat's mind, well, brings out that in the end we are all very, very complex creatures and we play different roles and often contradict ourselves. And there's, I mean, there's some interesting things in the sources that you both use. I mean, just in Christopher's case, you've got these lecious and diaries that it's always hard to know how much he's really represents someone's true feelings. True feelings and then with Thomas White, you've got all his poetry. But again, it's how much is that the real wife and how much is that an image he wants to project for himself, even when these things are written in private, it's still, is it possible to get a feeling of how accurate or how true these things really are or is it just an impossible quest.
我认为这就像Susan或Pat的思维方式一样，能够展现出我们所有人都是非常复杂的生物，会扮演不同的角色，经常自相矛盾。两位所使用的资料中也有一些有趣的事情。以Christopher为例，他有这些日记和散文，很难知道他到底代表了多少人的真实感受。而Thomas White则有他的所有诗歌。但同样的问题出现：这些到底是真实的表达还是他想呈现给自己的形象？即使这些东西是私下写的，我们是否可能了解到它们真实的准确性或真实性，或者这只是一个不可能的任务。
It's very, very difficult. In one point I made about using diaries is, is, you know, why are people writing diaries? What kind of persona they're trying to project? Because, I mean, sometimes people write a diary just to offload their feelings in a way that is that's the most sort of authentic and raw indication of what they're actually thinking or feeling. But very often people write diaries for other reasons. They made it thinking of posterity, they made it thinking of how we published lots of diaries.
这个问题非常非常难。我在谈论使用日记的一个观点是，你知道，为什么人们写日记呢？他们想要展现出怎样的个性？因为，有时候人们写日记只是为了卸下自己的感觉，以一种最真实和原始的方式表达他们实际的想法或感觉。但很多时候，人们写日记出于其他原因。他们可能会考虑到后人读到，或者考虑到我们出版了很多日记。
I came across four soldiers in second world war or soldiers serving in Ethiopia in 35, 36, they were keeping them before that girlfriend or that wife back home to show what a good soldier or good fascist they had been. Often a reason why they're writing it and you just simply got to think when you read the diary, what is the motive for this diary and therefore what kind of image is the person trying to project of himself or herself. But in the end, if someone's trying to, and I found this when looking at diaries, for example, of school teachers, I was thinking, well, these are so apparently such just statements about how wonderful each they are and how good they are as fascists.
我曾遇到过四名第二次世界大战中的士兵或在35或36年服役于埃塞俄比亚的士兵，他们之前会向他们在家的女友或妻子展示他们是多么好的士兵或者好的法西斯主义者。往往这是他们写日记的原因，当你阅读这篇日记时，你必须想一想这个人的动机是什么，他或她想表现什么样的形象。但最终，如果有人试图在日记中表现出他或她的好，例如我阅读了一些老师的日记，他们的日记中充满了他们是多么好的法西斯主义者这样的陈述，这可能是因为他们希望在教育系统中得到更高的地位。
And maybe that they're sort of keeping these diaries which might possibly have shown to a head teacher or somebody to show how well they behave. But in a sense, that is as much part of their real person, the fact they want to project themselves as good fascists. So you can say, well, even if they didn't necessarily sign up 100% for the kind of things they're saying about mostly in your fashion, the fact they want to project that to superior or whatever it is says quite a lot about their commitment to the regime, even it doesn't actually reflect necessarily their full inner feelings. So, but I think you've just got to be very critical of your sources and I guess it's the same with poetry, you've just got to sort of think, you know, why is some writing to John points or not writing John points or whatever it is.
也许他们在记录日记，可能会展示给校长或其他人，以展示他们的表现得有多好。但在某种程度上，这也是他们真实身份的一部分，他们想展示自己是良好的法西斯主义者。因此，你可以说，即使他们并不一定百分之百支持他们大多数时候所说的东西，但他们想向上级或其他人展示这一点，这也表明了他们对政权的承诺水平，即使这并不一定反映他们内心的真实感受。因此，我认为你必须非常批判地看待你的信息来源，我想在诗歌方面也是如此，你必须思考，为什么有些人会写给John，而有些人则不是。
Yes. I mean poets are alchemists, they can do anything, they range in the zodiac of their wit, that's what Philip Sidney says. But they, and a poet's truth is not the same as the truth for the rest of us. They're all sorts of constraints and inspirations for a poet that make the source quite different from anything else. A poet like Wyatt is constrained by his own nature, is constrained by his times, he's writing at a time when under the Trees and Act words are now Trees and so his life nearly ends on the difference on a distinction between syllables.
是的，我指的是诗人是炼金术士，他们可以做任何事情，他们在他们的机智星座中游走，这是菲利普·悉尼说的。但他们和诗人的真理与我们其他人的真理并不相同。对于诗人来说，有各种各样的限制和启发，使得他们的来源与其他任何事物都不同。像Wyatt这样的诗人受到自己天性的限制，受到他所处的时代的限制，他此时写作时，树下的话语现在成为了树，因此，他的生命几乎就结束在了音节之间的差异上。
And he says that the distinction between a difference of syllables make of the great difference, but he's also thinking of form and its form that's his inspiration and he's imitating great poets, especially Patrach. So he must write with the compression to follow the form of the sonnet. So and he's trying to imitate, he's imitating Horace or he's imitating Alamani who's imitating Areosto imitating Horace. You've got something, the poem is a palimpsest and what you can never do is to try and ransack it for a certain time, a certain place, a certain person. That really is to produce the poet.
他说，音节的不同之处会产生很大的差别，但他也在思考形式和形式对他灵感的影响，他在模仿伟大的诗人，尤其是彼特拉克。因此，他必须以压缩的方式写作，以符合十四行诗的形式。他试图模仿荷马或亚拉曼尼，后者正在模仿阿雷斯托，而阿雷斯托则在模仿荷马。这首诗是个涂抹卷轴，你永远不能试图搜索其中某个时间、某个地方或某个人。这真的是造就诗人的过程。
So it may be that the hind that he describes is who so list to hunt, it may be that the deer who is deer is Ann Bolin or it may not be. He'll write himself and then deny it. So and he'll speak and keep silent and you have to follow him through all those silences until you find a voice or you find a moment where you can be more certain of him I suppose. But you've got to track him and be cautious and stealthy.
可能这个作者所描述的雄鹿，并不一定是安·波林，也可能是其他人。他会写下来，然后又否认。他会说话，又保持沉默，你必须跟随他的每一个步伐，直到找到他的声音或者一个更加确定的时刻。但是你必须追踪他，小心翼翼、偷偷摸摸地行动。
And how far did you feel you had to be true to the original sources because something that Richard actually wanted to ask you to do was about keeping maintaining the original spellings of Thomas White because he wondered whether about the choice you made between whether to make it a bit easier for a modern reader but then also want to keep to the original. Why did you decide to stick with the original spellings in the end?
你觉得你需要如何忠于原始资料呢？理查德想要问你的是关于维护托马斯·怀特原始拼写的问题，因为他想知道你在选择方面的考虑，是想让现代读者更容易阅读，还是想保持原始。最终你为什么决定坚持原始拼写呢？
That was really difficult because I knew that if I didn't put Wyatt in his original spelling he sounds different if you put him in English in in our modern English. You don't get quite the players on words if you put punctuation in you you don't find the truth sort of hovering between the lines it's it that was one of the hardest decisions but this is a man who is going to go to the block on the difference between whether he said the king is left out of the cast.
这真的很困难，因为我知道如果我不按照Wyatt的原始拼写来写，那么当你用现代英语把他写出来时，他的声音就会变得不同。如果你在句子中加上标点符号，你就不会得到完整的语言游戏，也不能发现在字句之间悬浮着的真相，这是最困难的决定之一。但是这个人将因为他是否说过国王没有参与演出而去被处决。
Or cast out of the cast are asked so when he says that it make it the difference to the truth a syllable he really knows and he means it and so I didn't think that I could be one of those editors who edited Wyatt and put in a syllable here to make the rhyme smoother or to put him into modern English.
被排除在外的演员问他所说的是否会对真相产生影响，他真正知道并且是认真的，因此我不认为我可以成为那些编辑Wyatt的编辑人员之一，在这里加入一个音节使韵律更加流畅或将他置于现代英语中。
I think once you once you get the hang of it once you start reading him aloud as he would have been then it becomes much easier and I made all sorts of other compromised decisions I suppose because Wyatt's friends are not in their original orthography and Wyatt's diplomatic letters are not in his writing and his spelling but the poetry I had to stay far I think but it was difficult.
我认为一旦你掌握了他的语言，开始按照当时的口音朗读，就变得容易多了。我还做了很多妥协决定，因为Wyatt的朋友们不是用原始的拼写法，而Wyatt的外交信件也不是用他的写法和拼写法写的，但对于诗歌，我认为我必须尽量忠实，尽管这很困难。
I think it works very very well I thought it was an excellent choice to make because you know gain is given at this point about taking your reader back to an earlier period which is different and yet which has close resemblances in many many ways and I think the archaic English rather does that you get you you think well this is England it is my country whatever it is but it is slightly different and also as just a sort of I find it sort of fast just try and sort of to have to read and reread the poems to actually get used to it so it came like a sort of not quite a crossbar possible something but but intriguing part of the excitement of the book getting back into the world of 16th century to have to slightly you know wrestle to begin with at least with this rather unfamiliar English so I think it worked very well it would have been alienating I think to have translated the 16th century English into modern English because then you had the modern voice intruding into the recreation which is what the book is trying to recreation of that world of the 16th century.
我认为这本书的表达非常好。我认为选择古老的英语是明智的，因为它帮助读者回到了一个早期的时期，这个时期不同，但在很多方面有很多相似之处。而且，我认为这种古老的英语能让读者认识到：“这是英格兰，这是我的国家，但是它稍微有些不同。”这样读起来略有些艰难，但它却是很有吸引力的，它让本书更加令人兴奋，进入了16世纪的世界。读者需要稍微适应一下这些不太熟悉的古老英语，但总体来说，我认为这本书很好地表现了16世纪的世界。如果将16世纪的英语翻译成现代英语，可能会疏远一些读者，因为现代的声音会打扰到这个时期的再现。
You know in my case I had a fun and no choice but to translate but to translate you know the information used to translate in a way that reflected the tone of the Italian as much as possible so. But some of your diaries were almost impossible to penetrate weren't they I can't remember the name of the man who wrote on his olivetti. Oh yes. That was by word separating every word of the semi-cure and he was only marginally literate really but he wanted his story to be told I mean that was very and you know night after night he was writing his account that the truth be told that that is difficult when you've got someone who's writing in the case of in jazz or abitou you mentioned he's writing a very curious town and basically diocesan in dialect and it was going to be almost impossible English to bring across that sort of distance from from from from Italian.
在我这种情况下，我有趣，但别无选择，只能翻译，你知道，我要尽可能反映意大利人的语气翻译信息。但你们其中有些日记几乎是无法理解的，对吧？我不记得那个用olivetti打字机写的人的名字了。是的，他通过每个字母之间的分隔符来编写，他实际上只有较低的文化程度，但他想让自己的故事得到讲述，这非常重要。你知道，他夜以继日地写他的经历，让真相被揭示出来，但当有人用如在爵士或阿比托的方言写作时，这是很困难的，这基本上是不可能用英语进行跨越。
But yeah in the case of diaries of children or whatever you try little bit to replicate the sort of the sort of childish feel of the writing but the challenge was very different from from from one of the Susan based I think I mean no choice but I think to translate. But I think in a way you were making it easier easier easier for us than and doing us a tremendous favor but I mean even now if you go to Naples the language of the streets is not something that the rest you know even those who can speak a bit of Italian can understand and so each of those voices that you were presenting for us were speaking.
嗯，在写儿童日记等时，你会尽量模拟那种孩子般的书写感觉，但这个挑战与以苏珊为基础的情况非常不同，我认为我别无选择，只能翻译。但我认为从某种程度上来说，您让我们更容易理解了，并为我们做出了巨大的贡献。即使现在你去那不勒斯，街头语言也不是其他人都能听懂的意大利语，因此，您为我们呈现的每一种声音都是有意义的。
A language that would be hardly recognized as standard Italian because standard Italian is the creation of the television I suppose isn't it important well yes I mean I think it's only 1970s the majority of the town of populations but Italian as their first language is opposed to to dialect so yes a lot of these people who were who are writing diaries or letters were struggling with with with Italian so. Yes I'm it's important to sort of be able to to to bring out their voices and often these voices which which in it as well and not easy to be heard precisely because as you suggest the language is is not always one that the Montalens would be very familiar with.
这种语言很可能不会被认为是标准意大利语，因为标准意大利语是电视的创造。我认为这很重要，因为在大多数人对话的城镇中，在方言的对比下，他们的第一语言是意大利语。因此，许多写日记或信件的人都在与意大利语奋斗。因此，重要的是能够发掘他们的声音，这些声音往往很难被听到，正如你所暗示的那样，这种语言并不总是蒙塔伦斯人非常熟悉的。
And something else that I suppose applies to both your books is they both take on some quite big questions of their period I suppose you've got the whole question of Anne Berlin and Thomas why whether or not they they were a couple and then. This is quite different but in your book Christopher you've got did the Italian people really support Mussolini there's a two quite big topics a lot of other people have addressed do you feel that your books have settled these matters now or is it still up for debate.
我想你的两本书都涉及了当时的一些大问题。比如你提到了安妮·柏林和托马斯之间是否有感情关系的问题。此外，克里斯托弗的书中也探讨了意大利人是否真的支持墨索里尼，这是其他很多人也关注的大问题。您认为您的书已经解决了这些问题吗？还是这些问题仍然有待探讨呢？
Well, I think I haven't settled really the matter of Anne Berlin and Thomas why I think that there's a will among anybody who sees their fascination now and anybody then who saw their fascination they were they were they left other people behind that court or they people saw their difference there was a sort of inevitability that these people of a group of people.
我认为我还没有真正解决Anne Berlin和Thomas之间的事情，我认为任何人现在看到他们的魅力，任何那时看到他们魅力的人都会有意愿。他们离开了法院或其他人，那些人看到了他们的不同，有一种不可避免的感觉，这些人是一个人群。
These people of a kind of glamour and destiny would get together and there you know we can imagine them romping in the country side in their childhood I think it wasn't like that there was so much to prevent them actually having you know a romance that was consummated by its marriage you know the court constantly on the watch for this kind of thing that it's very it's very it's hard to tell.
这些充满魅力和命运的人聚在一起，我们可以想象他们在童年时在乡村里玩耍。但实际上并非如此，有很多事情阻碍了他们真正经历浪漫的婚姻。法庭一直在警惕这种事情，很难说清楚。
It's hard to tell us it it seems slightly preroyant to tell of course it does matter because why it is a great poet because Anne Berlin is a queen and she's a mother of a greater queen and so these are not matters without moment but I think after 500 years there are things that you can't tell be wise and not to speculate.
很难确定它是否有一点预言性，当然这很重要，因为安妮·柏林是一位伟大的诗人，她是女王和伟大女王的母亲，因此这些都是重要的事情。但我认为500年后有些事情是无法确定的，所以要明智而不是瞎猜。
In the case of fascism the you know the debates will go on on on about about this and we've seen the case of the third Reich Nazi Germany has a penchant swings backwards and forwards between people saying that there was a huge level of support it was what execution and so on then the penchant swings back again towards saying that well there's a huge amount of coercion rooms emphasize the coercion and extent which people were forced to to conform and to obey and then more recent I think the penchant swing back again.
在法西斯主义的情况下，关于这个问题的辩论会不断进行。我们已经看到第三帝国纳粹德国的情况，人们会持不同观点，有人认为有大量支持者，有人认为是高层领导的决策。接着，倾向又会转向认为，有很多被迫遵守和服从的人，强调强制和人们受到的影响。最近，我认为这种倾向又开始回到了更加支持前面认为有大量支持者的观点上。
The case of Germany to saying well actually the distinction between you know good Germans bad Nazis not one that we can make and in fact you know many more people than we perhaps imagined really bought into the broader agenda of Nazis and even if they didn't actually support the Nazi party.
“说到德国的情况，实际上好德国人和坏纳粹之间的区分是无法做出的。事实上，我们可能没有想象的那么多人真正接受了纳粹的广泛议程，即使他们不支持纳粹党。”
In the case of Italy the said and again to be a definitive answer on this one but I think what I hope I've opened up is some new avenues for thinking about fascism. The relationship with Catholic Church I think is one that has not been faced up to for various understandable reasons as squarely as it should have been but I'm very conscious of the extent to which right from the start that fascism's authority innately owed a huge amount to the really quite strong support almost in the very beginning of senior clergy innitly not just in 1929 when the conciliation took place between the fascist state and the Vatican.
在意大利的情况下，这并不是一个明确的答案，但我认为我希望我打开了一些关于法西斯主义的新思路。与天主教教会的关系，我认为是一个尚未得到适当认识的问题，这是出于各种可以理解的原因，但我非常清楚，从一开始，法西斯主义的权威性天然就得到了高级神职人员几乎在一开始就提供的强有力支持，而不仅仅是1929年法西斯国家和梵蒂冈之间的和解。
But long before that and you know if you think that for the Catholic Church liberalism almost as much as socialism as an enemy to be fought you begin to understand the extent to which fascism for all its faults as far as the Catholic Church concerned with its paganism and violence could nevertheless seem a much better bet both and socialism and also liberalism and it that gave fascism a huge huge advantage and because liberal state had never had the fuller of the fascism.
但在那之前，如果你认为对于天主教会来说，自由主义和社会主义一样是要与之对抗的敌人，那么你就会开始理解，对于天主教会来说，尽管法西斯主义有着它那些不良的方面，如异教信仰和暴力，但它似乎比社会主义和自由主义更可靠，这给了法西斯主义巨大的巨大优势，因为自由主义国家从未完全面对过法西斯主义。
So that's something to be really emphasized and I think gain you know thinking of Paul Presidents book on on Spain but also thinking about fascism as South America it's something that we need to think about rather more than we have done and the importance of the relationship between fascism and the backing of the the Catholic Church.
因此，这是一件非常需要强调的事情，我认为像保罗·普雷辛特在《关于西班牙的书籍》中的想法，以及思考南美法西斯主义的问题，这是我们需要更多关注的问题，以及法西斯主义与天主教教会的支持之间关系的重要性。
The other thing I think I would try and do in the book was to place the period 1922 to 45 in a broader context because very easy just to isolate the period and say it was all about you know class or whatever it is but if you think that most of the people who you're alive in 1922 would have their memories shaped by the 30 40 50 years that gone before then you can only understand fashion in the context of all the disappointments the frustrations the the you know the anxieties that have gone before disappointments about the first world war yet the dislike of liberalism the corruption of parliament the fragmentation in parliament all these things help then shaped how people approach fascism and even they didn't like aspects and mostly any all the fascist party.
我认为我在这本书中还想尝试做的另一件事是将1922年至1945年的时期放置于更广阔的背景下，因为很容易将这个时期孤立开来，说这是关于阶级或其他方面的一切，但如果你认为大多数在1922年生活的人的记忆都受到了之前三四五十年的影响，那么你只能从所有之前的失望、挫折、焦虑中理解时尚。对于第一次世界大战的失望，对于自由主义的厌恶，议会的腐败，议会的分裂，所有这些事情都塑造了人们如何接近法西斯主义，即使他们不喜欢法西斯主义的某些方面，甚至大多数任何法西斯党派。
Nevertheless they could really embrace the kind of hopes the aspirations that fascism seemed to be engendering in terms of national regeneration respect finally in Europe having a united nation the sense you know the past been fragmented now where one people were common death all these things I think helped to give people a sense that they could support fascism. And even if they didn't like aspects the corruption the party aspects of more salini so I think what I hope is is to try and open the debate out and suggest more broadly why these regimes fascism Italy or perhaps in an artism Germany or Francois they might be attractive but you know you can't settle the debate we can do is raise questions.
然而，这些人确实能够真正拥抱法西斯主义似乎在国家复兴方面所引发的希望和愿望，最终获得尊重的欧洲统一国家的意义 - 知道过去已经分裂，现在有一个共同的人民面对死亡，所有这些都有助于让人们感到他们可以支持法西斯主义。即使他们不喜欢腐败或者萨尔尼等党派方面的方面，我认为我的希望是尽可能地拓宽辩论范围，提出更广泛的问题，试图说明为什么这些政权（例如意大利的法西斯主义，或许德国或法国的纳粹主义）可能具有吸引力，但你知道你不能解决这个问题，我们所能做的就是提出问题。
The most chilling part of the book though of your book is the epilogue I think where the entries that are made it whereas it is a bit better. Pradapio where most of the people are still writing in 2010 to the duchy and thinking of the great man and they did exactly mention the third Rome now but they talk they they pine for him. There's a lot of nostalgia I think and again you can't quantify this but it's true that you're getting dozens sometimes hundreds and occasionally on the big anniversaries 1000 plus people writing sign the the commemoration book in front of Muslims to writing quite often lengthy inscriptions of praise to him.
你的书中最令人不寒而栗的部分，我认为是结尾部分，其中记录了一些人在普拉达皮奥（Pradapio）依然在2010年左右写下的文字，表达对这位伟人的想念，虽然现在他们不再提起第三罗马，但他们依然在谈论他，渴望他。这里充满了许多怀旧情感，无法量化，但事实是，有时会有几十人、偶尔会有上千人在穆斯林前写下漫长的赞美之词，控诉之书上签名纪念他。
And yes it it says something about the way in which if the past is not confronted squarely how it is very easy for myths to to remain powerful. And the case of Italy today we were just seeing the moment the art of mass that's been taken place in Italy since the elections in February in a better form of government recently the failure to elect a new president they've had to go back to poor Georgian or Patudana who lastly wanted age 86 and 87 where he's 788. But it's become president yet again but he's had to and you know there's widespread feeling it lead that and it is reminiscent of what was happening back in you know in the 100 years ago that this system was not working it's parties that are self serving is fragmented and so on so forth and you know it's very easy in those circumstances people to think are well things were better when we had you know one strong man who had a you know they were a unit as a nation and so on so. You know how easy it is for myths to be resurrected and in that context how easy it is for people to bat away any criticism and to say that the people who.
是的，他说到了一个问题，即如果不正视过去，神话将很容易保持强大的影响力。在意大利，我们今天正看到自2月份选举以来在该国发生的大规模抗议活动，特别是最近由于未能选出新总统而不得不重新选举已退休的乔吉安尼·帕图拉尼，他今年已经88岁了。他再次当选总统，但是有广泛的意见认为，这让人想起100年前正在发生的事情，即这个系统不起作用，政党只关心自己的利益，分裂等等，很容易在这种情况下让人们认为，有一个强人领袖当家时，事情会变得更好，这是一个有利于国家整体的发展方向。在这种情况下，神话很容易重现，人们也很容易推翻批评，认为那些反对者只是没看到过去的好。
Of criticized most of the is also quite a lot of the last 20 years is to argue that anti fascism and the criticisms of fashion mostly have been inspired by the comments but you can then say well comments discredited therefore anti fashion discredited and so you know you can you can sort of bat away any criticisms in order to protect what you want i sort of you know mythic image of a great man who might offer hope. And I suppose that they're also it's with the Tudor period a quite strong myths developed in the so the popular imagination about that I mean I guess it might be as dangerous as the of the fascist period but it still is an issue of history that they do need to confront some of these myths.
在过去的20年中，大部分的批评都认为反法西斯主义和对时尚的批评大多是受到评论的启发。但你又可以说，评论不可信，因此反时尚也不可信，这样你就可以轻松地抵御任何批评，以保护你想要的那种神话式的伟大人物形象，他可能会带来希望。我认为，在都铎时期也出现了一些强烈的神话，在民间想象中产生了很大的影响。虽然这可能与法西斯主义时期一样危险，但他们仍然需要面对这些神话中的一些问题，因为这是历史的一部分。
Yes I think that the the hold of the Tudor Monics especially Henry VIII and Elizabeth on the popular imagination is extraordinary and the a kind of mythic quality surrounding them I think I mean fortunately Henry now is seen more as a monster than as a sort of founding father but he I mean here here is a man who. Destroyed so much and there are those who read it's hard to think of the reformation I think as other than a tragedy in some ways for those who lived through it there are gains and losses I suppose but in the way that it was done.
我认为，图都王朝，特别是亨利八世和伊丽莎白对广大民众想象力的影响是非常特别的，并且他们周围有一种神话般的质量。幸运的是，现在人们更多地把亨利看作是一个怪物，而不是一位创立者。但是，这是一个摧毁了许多东西的人物。有人认为，无法将宗教改革视为一种悲剧，对那些经历过它的人来说，有所得也有所失。但是，它的实现方式确实令人担忧。
The pain remains Elizabeth who was quite controversial at her time in her time I suppose I mean remains as a you know it would how it would be hard to gain say this the real achievement of her reign. That was Christopher Duggan and Susan Brickdon in conversation.
痛苦仍然存在，伊丽莎白在她的时代是相当有争议的人物。我想这是指她的真正成就仍然存在，你知道这是很难反驳的。这是克里斯托弗·达根和苏珊·布里克登的谈话。
I'd like to thank Paul Rams bottom and the Wolfson foundation for lending us their premises to record the interviews. If you'd like to know more about the Wolfson history prize please visit wolfson.org.uk forward slash history hyphen prize both Christopher and Susa's books are of course on sale now.
我想感谢保罗·拉姆斯波顿和沃尔夫森基金会借给我们他们的场地录制采访。如果你想了解更多关于沃尔夫森历史奖项的信息，请访问 wolfson.org.uk/history-prize。克里斯托弗和苏萨的书现在当然已经上市了。
Fascist voices and intimate history of Mussolini's Italy is published by bodily head while Thomas Wyatt the hearts forest is published by favor. We'll be reporting on the Wolfson history prize in our June issue which goes on sale in a couple of weeks.
《法西斯之声和墨索里尼意大利的亲密历史》是由身体头部出版的，而《托马斯·怀亚特之心的森林》是由喜爱出版的。我们将在六月的出售中报告沃尔夫森历史奖，并进行报道。此书旨在探讨墨索里尼时代的法西斯主义和意大利的历史事件，而《托马斯·怀亚特之心的森林》则是一本关于英国历史的书籍。我们在未来几周内出售，敬请期待。
In the meantime you can still get hold of our May edition where we have articles on second world war misconceptions the damn busters raid, Roman gladiators royal clothing King John and the legacy of Margaret that. Our may issue is available in all good news agents and digitally and as I mentioned earlier you can find more information on our digital editions at history extra dot com forward slash digital.
与此同时，您仍然可以获取我们的五月版，其中有关于二战误解、谴责（the Dambusters Raid）、罗马角斗士、皇家服装、约翰国王和玛格丽特遗产的文章。我们的五月期刊可以在所有好的新闻代理中以数字形式获得，正如我之前提到的，您可以在historyextra.com/digital上找到更多关于我们数字版本的信息。
Well that's almost all for this week do get in touch with your views on podcast at history extra dot com and we may well read out some of your messages in future episodes. You can also contact us on Twitter we're at history extra and on facebook dot com forward slash history extra.
这周就快结束了，如果对我们的播客有任何看法，请联系我们，可以发邮件到 history extra dot com，并且我们可能会在未来的一些节目中朗读你的留言。你也可以在 Twitter 上联系我们，我们的账号是 history extra，或者在 Facebook 上通过 forward slash history extra 与我们联系。
Next time we'll be back in Bristol discussing King John's battles with the barons and speaking to a survivor of the holocaust. It's an episode that you won't want to miss.
下次我们会回到布里斯托尔，讨论约翰国王与贵族的战争，并采访一名大屠杀的幸存者。这将是一集你不想错过的节目。
The history extra podcast is produced in Bristol by Jack Fletcher.
历史额外播客由杰克·弗莱彻在布里斯托制作，节目主要讲述历史相关的内容。