The BBC at 100: change & innovation in 60s Britain
发布时间 2022-05-23 11:00:08 来源
Hello and welcome to the History Extra Podcast from BBC History Magazine and BBC History Review. I'm Ellie Corthon. In the latest episode in our monthly series marking the centenary of the BBC, media historian David Hendy and Matt Elton have reached the 1960s.
大家好，欢迎收听BBC历史杂志和BBC历史评论的《历史Extra播客》。我是Ellie Corthon。在我们每月一次的庆祝BBC百年历史的系列节目中，传媒历史学家David Hendy和Matt Elton已经讲到了1960年代。
When the BBC was forced to adapt quickly to keep up with the rapid changes transforming British society.
当BBC被迫迅速适应快速变化的情况以跟上正在改变英国社会的快速变化时。
So David, is it fair to say that as we pick up this story at the start of the 1960s, the BBC was poised awkwardly between its past and its future?
大卫，可以这么说，当我们在20世纪60年代初开始讲述这个故事时，BBC正站在过去和未来之间，处于尴尬的境地吗？
Yes, I think that idea of it being poised between past and future really neatly sums up where the BBC is at the start of the 60s. The writer, EM Forster, said something interesting about broadcasting. He was actually talking about the third program, but I think it stands in a way for the BBC more broadly. He said it has two faces, one that faces the past and one that faces the future.
我认为这个想法将BBC置于过去和未来之间的概念真的很好地概括了60年代初BBC所处的位置。作家EM福斯特曾经就广播做过一些有趣的评论。他实际上是在谈论第三个节目，但我认为它在某种程度上代表了BBC的更广泛意义。他说它有两个面孔，一个面对着过去，一个面向未来。
And also to put it slightly differently, a face that reflects and a face that explores. And I think that really captures where we are with the BBC at the start of the 1960s.
换种表述，一个反映的面孔和一个探索的面孔。我认为这很好地表达了我们在20世纪60年代初BBC的位置。
Just take the issue of multiculturalism, for instance. We've got the black and white minstrels which started in 1958, even then a kind of troubling kind of programme genre with dancers blacked up, drawing on that minstrel tradition. And by 1962, there were people inside the BBC already warning programme makers that this was an offensive programme. You've also just finished recently is Caribbean voices, which was a long running a radio series broadcast to the West Indies, which featured many, many rising talents, writers and poets from the Caribbean. You'd had dramas on TV like Man from the Sun in 1956, which offered a sympathetic portrayal of the experience of immigrants from the Caribbean. So in terms of multiculturalism, you've got a kind of a mixed balance sheet there.
以多元文化为例，我们可以谈论一些问题。例如，黑白相间的民谣演唱团1958年开始，那时舞者们涂黑了脸，扮演着民谣传统的角色，这是一种令人困扰的节目类型。到1962年，BBC内部就有人警告节目制作人，这是一种具有冒犯性的节目。最近你们还刚刚结束了“加勒比之声”这个广播系列节目，该节目长期向西印度群岛播出，特别展示了来自加勒比海的许多才华横溢的作家和诗人。在电视上也有像1956年播出的《来自阳光之国》这样的剧集，提供了对从加勒比移民的经历的同情性描绘。总的来说，就多元文化而言，有一种混合的平衡表现。
Think about ITV and competition. So ITV had come along in 1955. By 1960, the BBC has responded to ITV. It's work in progress. ITV offered a kind of a faster-paced, brashier, less formal, less deferential approach to news, for instance. And the BBC was changing, it was featuring its newsreaders on TV in vision, not just their voices. Reporters were being less deferential. The presentation of BBC television was tightening up and becoming slicker in a way.
思考ITV和竞争的问题。ITV在1955年出现，到了1960年，BBC开始对其做出回应。这是一个逐步推进的过程。ITV提供了一种更快节奏、更猛烈、更不正式、更不顺从的新闻方式。而BBC也在改变，开始在电视上展示其新闻主播的形象，而不仅仅是他们的声音。记者们也开始更加不顺从。BBC电视的呈现方式在某种程度上变得更加精细和流畅。
And then, of course, there's the turnover of staff, which is really important. You've got a generation of programme-makers who are reaching retirement, leaving the BBC, and you've got a new generation, university-educated, young men and women who are less deferential, more questioning. And they're kind of looking at a kind of changing society. They see a kind of society which is changing more broadly. And those changes are being played out and fought over in broadcasting. So people who want society to become more progressive and more permissive in art and culture and cinema and the portrayal of sex and the use of language and so on are kind of pushing into the BBC and trying to kind of shake up what broadcasting this kind of traditional domestic medium can do.
当然，员工的更替也非常重要。你有一代创作人即将退休，离开BBC，而你有一个新的、受过大学教育的年轻男女群体，他们不再如之前那样恭敬，更加有质疑精神。他们在看着一个变化的社会，这种变化正在广泛展开。并且这些变化正在广播中得到展示和争论。那些希望社会在艺术、文化、电影、性描写和语言使用等方面变得更加进步和宽容的人正在进入BBC，并试图动摇这种传统的国内媒介的广播能力。
You've mentioned a few factors there. External pressure from young people, internal pressure from young people, commercial pressure. Was there a key factor among those that was particularly important, or which the BBC felt particularly sensitive about, or was this more a case of a confluence of factors all happening at the same time?
你提到了几个因素。年轻人的外部压力，年轻人的内部压力和商业压力。这些因素中是否有一个关键因素特别重要，或者BBC特别敏感，还是多种因素同时发生的情况？
I mean, I think it is really a confluence, but age, the sort of, if you like, the generational kind of conflict which seems to be emerging, perhaps underpins a lot of them. So, yes, in terms of kind of youth, you've got a kind of flowering of a teenage culture for which you know, music is quite central. And although the BBC has right from the beginning been broadcasting music, including popular music, dance music, it's clear that in the early 1960s, it's not keeping up with musical taste. Musical taste is accelerating, it's changing, pop culture means there's always something new every week, every month. And the BBC is just not able to capture that.
我的意思是，我认为这真的是一种汇流，但是年龄上，如果你喜欢的话，似乎正在出现一种代际冲突，可能是其中很多问题的基础。因此，在年轻人方面，你会看到一种青少年文化的蓬勃发展，音乐在其中是相当重要的。尽管BBC从一开始就在播放音乐，包括流行音乐、舞蹈音乐，但很明显，在20世纪60年代初，他们无法追赶音乐口味的发展速度。音乐口味越来越多样化，流行文化意味着每周、每月总会有新鲜事物出现，而BBC却无法跟上这个步伐。
In terms of competition, yes, you've got other television services, you've got ITV and the BBC has to respond to that. But actually, when you read accounts of program makers who were in the BBC in the late 50s and the early 60s, one of the phrases that leapt out at me was who Weldon, who said, we were in competition with ourselves. So, to some extent, we have to remember that there is an organic process here that is within the BBC, not just that turnover of staff, but the same staff who see their job as sensing the changes in society and trying to capture what is happening at any given moment.
在竞争方面，确实有其他电视服务，比如ITV，而BBC必须回应。但实际上，当你阅读那些在50年代末到60年代初在BBC工作的节目制作者的描述时，我被一句话震惊了，“我们是在与自己竞争。” 所以，在某种程度上，我们必须记住这里有一个有机的过程，它存在于BBC内部，不仅涉及员工流动，还涉及同样的员工认为他们的工作是感知社会变化并试图捕捉任何给定时刻的发生。
Two other factors that I think are really important that perhaps you haven't touched on yet. One is, there's a new director general. Hugh Carlton Green is director general in 1960 at the very start of the decade.
我认为还有两个很重要的因素，或许你还没有提到。其一是，有一位新的总干事。1960年，休・卡尔顿・格林成为总干事。
Now, Hugh Carlton Green has been around in the BBC since the Second World War. He came in as a director of. the German service during wartime and was involved rising up the ranks through news and current affairs and external broadcasting through the 1950s and he becomes director general.
休·卡尔顿·格林自二战以来一直在BBC工作。他在战时担任德国服务的导演，并通过1950年代的新闻和当前事务以及外部广播而晋升，并成为总干事。
And in many ways, he's has dominating and influential figure on the BBC in the 1960s as Ruth was in the 20s and the early 30s. He's someone who sends out a message to his staff which is, let's throw open the windows, let's blow away what he called the ivory tower stuffiness and let's actually be ahead of public taste, not always behind it.
在很多方面，他在20世纪60年代对BBC的影响力与20年代和30年代初期的Ruth一样占支配地位。他会向员工发出一个信息，即让我们打开窗户，让我们摆脱他所称的贵族气息和不适，让我们真正走在公众品味的前面，而不总是落后。
And at the same time, and this is the final crucial factor, I think, the BBC is actually well resourced at this point. It's got plenty of TV license fee income coming in. It's got a new television centre which opens. It's sort of feeling confident and it's feeling as if it's got the resources and the firepower to make good and exciting programs.
同时，我认为这是最关键的因素之一，BBC实际上在这个阶段资金充裕。它有足够的电视许可收费收入。它有一个全新的电视中心开业。它感到自信，并且觉得有足够的资源和能力制作出好的、令人兴奋的节目。
It would be great to talk through some of those programs, some of the ways in which this wind of change, if you like, actually impacted on particular genres, I suppose.
可以很棒地讨论一些节目，一些方法来说明这股变革的实际影响，尤其是对特定体裁的影响。
I mean, what were some of the key innovations in terms of satire and in terms of drama which were two of the big things that experienced change, I think?
“在讽刺和戏剧方面，有哪些关键创新是其中两个经历了变革的大事情，我想知道的是？”
Well, you mentioned satire and I suppose the preeminent example of that would be that was the week that was which launches in November 1962. It actually only runs for sort of two seasons.
嗯，你提到了讽刺，我想最重要的例子就是《那就是那一周》，它于1962年11月开播。它实际上只播了两个季度。
意思：该节目是一个讽刺类的节目，于1962年11月开始播出，但它只运行了两个季度。
So by the end of 1963, it's gone. So it has this sort of brief, extraordinary life that rides the wave of the early 60s satire boom. And what's interesting about it from a BBC point of view is that it's the BBC doing it.
到了 1963 年末，这档节目就停播了。它经历了一段短暂而非凡的生命，在 60 年代初期的讽刺热潮中一路狂奔。对于 BBC 来说，它有趣之处在于这是 BBC 制作的节目。
Old-fashioned aunties it were is part of the satire boom. And it's also that it was a kind of blend of news and satire. It wasn't actually the light entertainment department that made it. It was kind of news and current affairs people. And this mixing of news and entertainment was pretty new territory for the BBC.
《老派的阿姨》是讽刺流行的一部分。同时，它也是新闻和讽刺的一种混合。制作这个节目并不是轻松娱乐部门，而是新闻和时事人员。这种新闻和娱乐的混合对于BBC来说是比较新的领域。
And the style of the program as well, it was clearly anti-establishment, not necessarily progressive, but it was anti-establishment. And it seemed to be something that was by young people, four young people, a late Saturday night show.
这个节目的风格显然是反主流的，不一定是进步的，但它是反主流的。它似乎是由年轻人为年轻人制作的，是一个周六晚上的晚节目。
David Frost was in his early 20s as the main presenter. You have Bernard Levin offering a Serbic interviews and commentary, Millicent Martin singing the theme song. And the studio setup is kind of cluttered and raw and chaotic.
David Frost 在二十岁出头时担任主持人。他获得贝尔纳德·莱文的讽刺采访和评论，还有米利森特·马丁演唱主题曲。而工作室的摆设有些凌乱、原朴和混乱。
So you know, when you're watching this show, you see the cameras moving around. You see the kind of lighting rig. You see the audience and so on. And it sort of captures this idea that it didn't want to be smooth. It was challenging the whole idea of Artifist. So it wasn't just about content. It was the kind of the whole style of that was the week that was that offered something new.
你知道，当你看这个节目的时候，你会看到摄像机在移动，灯光设备，观众等等。这种方式捕捉到了这样一个观念，即它不希望表现得太过平滑。它在挑战“艺术表现主义”的整个概念。因此，它不仅仅是关于内容，而且整个风格都提供了新的东西。这就是“那是那个星期”的全貌。
You mentioned drama. And I suppose again, the preeminent example of that would be the Wednesday play, which later turns into play for today when it moves from Wednesday. From 1964, you've got the Wednesday play, which draws on a wide range of of dramatists and styles, but perhaps becomes most famous for the kind of gritty realism tradition that you can see in other drama series like Z-Cars, that was something that was around and very influential.
你提到了戏剧。我认为，最杰出的例子就是周三剧目，当它从周三移动到今日播出时，它变成了现在的剧目。自1964年起，周三剧目汲取了广泛的剧作家和风格，但可能最著名的是那种坚韧现实主义的传统，就像其他戏剧系列《Z-Cars》中所看到的那样，这是一个早就存在并且非常有影响力的东西。
And the Wednesday classic Wednesday plays I suppose would be up the junction in 1965 and Kathy come home in 1966, both directed by Ken Loach, who when he talks about those programs, he makes clear that he was deliberately setting out kind of intervene on social issues. In the case of those two dramas about abortion and about homelessness, so this was politically pointed drama. Now not like every Wednesday play or play for today was explicitly political as that.
周三经典剧目将会播放《在1965年的十字路口》和《在1966年的凯西回家》，都由肯·洛奇导演，他在谈论这些节目时明确表示，他有意介入社会问题。在这两个关于流浪和堕胎的戏剧中，这是明显的政治题材。现在并不是每个周三的戏剧或当今的剧目都像这样明确政治。
As I say, it kind of offered a range of styles. But I think that captures the kind of the part of the new tone and the new feel. The really important thing to remember is there's always plenty of traditional stuff still around. And plenty of kind of as it were traditional or ethian uplift.
就像我所说的那样，这种风格提供了各种不同的款式。但我认为这捕捉到了新的风格和感觉的一部分。重要的事情是要记住，始终有很多传统的东西仍然存在。还有很多传统或伦敦上扬的东西。
So at the end of the decade, 1969 you've got Kenneth Clark presenting civilization in a way the grand man's vision, a patrician vision of the history of western art. I mean a fantastic series, but deeply traditional in many ways.
在20世纪60年代末，1969年，肯尼思·克拉克以大人物的视角提出了西方艺术史中文明的呈现方式，这是一个贵族般的愿景。这是一系列极棒的作品，但在许多方面仍然是传统的。
And even some of those shows that we associate with the kind of the new pop culture like jukebox jury are actually kind of somehow very BBC. I mean, you know, David Jacobs, the presenter of this an avancular figure and a program that really was designed very much for the sort of the family audience rather than just the teenager.
甚至一些我们认为与新流行文化相关的节目，例如《点唱机陪审团》，实际上在某种程度上也非常BBC。我的意思是，你知道，《点唱机陪审团》的主持人David Jacobs是一个非常亲切的人物，这个节目也非常适合全家观看，而不仅仅是青少年。
So you know, throughout the 60s, in a sense we've got programs that are emblematic, not just of the kind of the new style, but of a BBC that's a mix, a jungle of the new and the old. This is really interesting. This idea of it being a jungle of the BBC existing somewhere on a continuum between its old traditions and these new forms, new ways of doing things.
在60年代，我们有了一些代表全新风格的节目，这些节目不仅彰显了BBC的全新风格，还展现了BBC混杂了新旧元素的混乱状态，形成了一片象征意义的“丛林”。这种概念非常有趣，表明BBC存在于传统与新形式之间的一个连续性中。
How hard was it for the BBC and the people that were there to judge to what extent things could be pushed in these types of programs? And what sort of initial response were these new innovations and met with, I suppose? I suppose if you peer inside the BBC in the 1960s and you do that, I guess, looking at the records of things like the weekly program review board and all these editorial discussions, what you see is a BBC which is spending an almost infinite amount of time discussing these things and grappling with these things. And of course, there are no obvious answers.
在这种类型的节目中，BBC和相关人员要评估事情可以推动到什么程度，这是多么困难的？这些新的创新最初得到了什么样的反应呢？我想，如果你深入研究1960年代的BBC，查看类似每周节目审查委员会和所有这些编辑讨论的记录，你会看到一个BBC几乎花费无限的时间讨论这些事情并且苦苦搏斗。当然，没有明显的答案。
Now you've got a director general in Hugh Carton Green who says this, he goes around and says to his senior staff, if you don't upset part of your audience most of the time, you're not doing your job properly. Now that's a real encouragement to take risks, right? But then you've also got this old continuing, wreathy, and idea that yes, it's okay to lead to be a head of public taste. But if you're too far ahead of public taste, you're going to leave the public behind. So there's always a measurement to public taste.
现在你有个总监休·卡顿·格林说了这番话，他会告诉高级职员：如果你不在大部分时间里激起观众的不满，那么你就没做好自己的工作。这真是鼓舞人心，让人敢于冒险啊。但是，还有一种旧的思想纠缠不休，认为领导人要紧跟公众的口味。但是如果你领先公众的口味太远，你会把大众落在后面。所以公众口味总是要被衡量的。
And if you look at the minutes of these weekly program review boards where all the senior program makers and heads of departments gather every week and chew over the programs of the week and the issues that arise, they use their professional instincts, but they also look at what the newspapers are saying. They look at the audience research, they look at the letters in the phone course they've received, and they blend all of these factors in to try and reach a judgment. But it's hard.
如果你查看这些每周节目审查委员会的会议记录，其中所有高级节目制作者和部门主管每周聚集一起，讨论本周的节目和出现的问题，他们会运用自己的专业感觉，但他们也会关注报纸上的报道、观众调查和电话热线收到的来信，综合考虑所有这些因素来试图做出判断。但这很难。
There was one person at a weekly program review board who said trying to draw the line in terms of public taste was like trying to draw a line in mist. And so, you know, just take the example of language. There were certain words that the BBC knew it either couldn't broadcast because they were too strong. Or if they were to be included, let's say in a kind of difficult controversial drama, then they were referable words.
在一个每周的节目审查委员会上，有一个人说尝试在公众口味上划分界限就像是在雾中画线一样困难。举个例子，比如语言方面。BBC知道有些词语太过强烈，不能播出。或者如果它们被包括在一部困难、有争议的戏剧中，那么这些词语就得被替换掉。
In other words, you had to refer to your line manager and it might eventually go right up to the director general. Well, that's fine for the most extreme words. But what about bloody or damn and words like that that are kind of demotic words in common speech. And if you've got dramatists who want to reflect the world as it is, it's going to have to use words like that. Do you refer those? Do you exclude them? If you exclude them, won't the BBC sound a little bit pussy and old fashioned? If you include too many of them, will it just offend the audience so much that the audience is lost?
换句话说，你必须向你的线上经理咨询，然后可能会最终上报至总干事。对于最极端的词汇，这是可以接受的。但是，对于像"bloody"和"damn"这样在日常语言中比较通俗的词汇，你又该如何处理呢？如果有剧作家想要呈现真实的世界，就必须使用这些词汇。你会引用这些词汇吗？还是排除它们？如果排除它们，BBC会不会听起来有点保守和老式？如果包含其中太多，又会引起观众的反感，导致观众流失吗？
So there's no straightforward answer to this. And the BBC is aware that while it's got dramatists and writers and young program makers pushing in one direction, it's also got outside of the BBC, people like Mary Whitehouse, most famously, who is determined to take a stand and actually say, whatever you the BBC think you're doing, there is a silent majority as she would refer to it who believe that actually there's too much kitchen sink drama and not enough of the kind of cozy sitting room, if you like. So the BBC is just, I'm not sure if the BBC finds an answer to all this, but it's constantly aware of this issue and trying to kind of navigate some way through it.
这个问题并没有简单明了的答案。BBC知道，虽然它有编剧、作家和年轻的节目制作人在推动一个方向，但BBC之外，像最出名的玛丽·怀特豪斯这样的人却决心发表看法，实际上说，无论BBC认为自己在做什么，有一个沉默的多数群体（她会这样说）认为实际上有太多的厨房水槽话剧，没有足够的舒适客厅戏剧。因此，BBC并不确定会找到一个答案，但它不断意识到这个问题并试图在其中找到一条路。
Did the launch of BBC 2 in 1964 give the BBC new opportunities? And I suppose how did it view this new channel? I suppose in many ways BBC television having a second channel was rather like the creation of the third program in 1946 and what that did for radio in terms of creating a space where a few risks could be taken without necessarily undermining the effort of the main channel, what became BBC 1 whose job it was really to compete with ITV in terms of kind of the ratings battle, which was pretty ferocious for much of the 1960s.
1964年BBC 2的推出给BBC带来了新的机会吗？我认为它如何看待这个新的频道？在许多方面，BBC电视拥有第二个频道就像1946年创造第三个节目对于广播创造一个空间，在这个空间里可以采取一些冒险行动，而不会破坏主要频道的努力——最后成为BBC 1，其工作是真正与ITV竞争，以争夺收视率战斗，这在20世纪60年代的大部分时间都非常激烈。
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So BBC 2 was this blank slate if you like that could create space for experimentation, for trying new formats and he wasn't the first controller of BBC 2 but the controller for much of this period David Attenborough really sort of invented BBC 2 very much in his own image as a kind of Renaissance man. In other words, he wanted to kind of widen the range of subjects which could be tackled.
BBC 2是一个空白的板子，可以为实验和尝试新格式创造空间。他不是BBC 2的第一任控制者，但在大部分时间里负责人David Attenborough非常想创造一个文艺复兴式的BBC 2。换句话说，他希望扩大能够处理的主题范围。
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Archaeology had that been done on television? Well, let's have a go. Anthropology, let's do that. Sport, that's a bit tricky because existing channels have rights over certain sporting events and we don't want to undermine them. So what are we left with? Not very much. What about flood lit rugby? What about snooker? What about putting snooker on television?
如果考古学在电视上进行了呢？那么让我们试试。人类学，我们可以尝试一下。体育节目有些棘手，因为现有的频道已经拥有了某些体育赛事的权利，我们不想削弱它们的地位。那么我们还剩下什么？其实不剩几个了。打灯光的橄榄球比赛怎么样？斯诺克比赛怎么样？让斯诺克上电视怎么样？
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And the range on BBC 2 becomes kind of fantastically varied, even more. varied than perhaps on Radio 1. You've got, you know, Ken Flax, Civilisation at one extreme and then kind of modern pop shows at the other extreme and all and snooker in the middle. So BBC 2 kind of provides this sort of new playground for invention, if you like, in television where a few risks and can be taken.
BBC 2的节目类型变得非常丰富，甚至比Radio 1还要多元化。你可以看到肯·弗拉克斯的《文明》以及现代流行音乐节目，还有中间的斯诺克比赛。因此，BBC 2成为了电视界的新乐园，可以在这里进行一些冒险，尝试新的创新。
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But what also happens is that, you know, David Attenborough being a good BBC man has conversations with his colleagues who are running BBC 1 and it's a coordinated effort. So it's all part of one BBC and, you know, the idea is that there would be a kind of useful contrast between the two at given times and they coordinated in terms of programme junctions and so on.
然而，发生的另一件事是，大卫·艾登堡作为一名优秀的BBC人员，与运营BBC 1的同事进行交流，这是一项协调的努力。因此，这都是BBC的一部分，而且在特定时间内两者之间会有一种有用的对比，并在节目连接等方面进行协调。
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And of course the arrival of BBC 2 in a sense really helps the BBC in the ratings war. You know, they were equally poised. One BBC television channel and ITV and now the BBC has two channels and ITV just one. So it really helps again boost the BBC, gives it confidence. It's a kind of expanding, confident organisation at this stage.
当然，BBC 2的到来在某种程度上真正帮助了BBC在收视率战争中。你知道，它们之前处于同等地位。只有一家BBC电视频道和ITV，现在BBC有两个频道而ITV只有一个。因此，它真正有助于提升BBC的实力，给它自信。这是一个不断扩张、充满信心的组织。
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So the government takes action to close down the pirates but it realises there has to be some sort of legal alternative and it's the BBC that is lined up to provide this legal alternative and it emerges in September 1967 in the form of Radio One.
因此，政府采取行动关闭盗版，但它意识到必须有某种合法的替代品，BBC被选为提供这种合法替代品的机构，在1967年9月以 Radio One 的形式出现。
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Is it right to say that the third channel had become available as an idea and then the government decided to give it to the BBC rather than ITV? Is that how that worked? Yes, there was a government inquiry, the Pilkington Committee which sat and a third channel was up for grabs. It was by no means certain whether that would go to the commercial sector or go to the BBC.
是否可以说第三个频道是作为一种想法而变得可行，并且政府决定将其授予BBC而不是ITV？就是这样吗？是的，政府进行了一项调查，即皮尔金顿委员会，第三个频道就成了摆脱魔爪的对象。并不确定这是否会成为商业部门或者授予BBC的机会。
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Although there were quite a few people on the Pilkington Committee, like Richard Hoggut for instance, who were kind of as it were more sympathetic to the BBC than to commercial broadcasting. Hugh Colton Green actually mobilised an extraordinarily kind of clever effort. He had been involved in some sort of what we might call Siox operation after the war and he knew how to kind of run a campaign and was very, very clever about kind of steering the Pilkington Committee towards the right conclusion which was to award this channel to the BBC. So yeah, the BBC were kind of, were pretty kind of clever about managing this. But the committee in a sense was veering that way anyway.
尽管皮尔金顿委员会的成员中有一些人，比如理查德·霍格特，对BBC比商业广播更有同情心，但休·科尔顿·格林实际上发动了一场非常聪明的努力。他在战后参与了某种类似Siox行动的活动，知道如何运营一场运动，并非常聪明地引导皮尔金顿委员会达到正确的结论，即将此频道授予BBC。因此，BBC在处理这个问题时非常聪明。但委员会在某种程度上本来就朝那个方向转移。
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You mentioned Radio One there, so we should move to Radio. What were the BBC's radio offerings in the first half of the decade and did they experience these similar sort of social pressures to change as the TV channels did?
你提到了Radio One，那么我们应该转移到电台。在这个十年的上半期，BBC的广播节目有哪些？他们是否经历了与电视渠道类似的社会压力来改变呢？
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One of the great BBC radio figures who joined in the 1930s and actually retired left at the end of the 60s was Geoffrey Brideson, who made wonderful documentaries. And he described BBC Radio at the end of the 50s and the early 60s as quotes in the doldrums.
在1930年代加入BBC广播的杰出人物之一，直到60年代末退休的杰弗里·布莱德森制作了精彩的纪录片。他描述了50年代末和60年代初BBC广播的处境，称其为“沉闷的时期”。
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And I mean his reason for saying that was partly the fact that he was still struggling to find an identity in a purpose with the rise of television. I mean, you know, more and more people watching television, especially in the evening, when which had been kind of one of Radio's traditional peak time.
我指的是他说这话的原因部分是因为他仍在努力寻找电视兴起时的身份和目的。我是说，越来越多的人在看电视，尤其是在晚上，这曾经是广播传统的高峰时间之一。
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So Radio was having to adjust to being a kind of daytime medium. It was having to adjust to being a bit of a background medium. People didn't really any longer kind of sit down and sort of pay attention to the radio like they did to the television set.
因此，广播电台不得不适应成为一种白天的媒介。它需要适应成为一种背景媒介。人们不再像看电视一样静静地坐下来专注于收听广播。
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Radio is on in the kitchen or sometimes the bedroom. And increasingly later it would be on in the car. So was Radio doing the right thing? Were kind of elaborate set piece dramas and features and documentaries the right sort of thing? Or should Radio reinvent itself as a so-called secondary background medium?
收音机通常在厨房或有时在卧室里开着。而且越来越晚，它会在车里开着。那么，电台做得对吗？那种复杂的戏剧、专题节目和纪录片是正确的吗？还是说电台应该重新发明自己，成为所谓的次要背景媒介？
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You know, it should be everything should be sort of short and manageable and digestible in short chunks. You know, three minutes of this and three minutes of that should radio stations be more predictable so that people knew what they were getting instead of a kind of rich mix on each channel.
你知道，一切应该是短小，易处理和容易理解的。电台应该更加可预测，这样人们就知道他们正在得到什么，而不是每个频道都是一种丰富的混合体，每次只进行三分钟的广播。
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Should people know, well, if I tune into that, I'll get music and if I tune into that, I'll get speech or news and so on. So all these debates were happening. But beneath the surface there was constant change and evolution.
人们应该知道，如果我打开这个，我会得到音乐，如果我打开那个，我会听到讲话或新闻等等。所以，所有这些辩论都在发生。但在表面下，不断地变化和演变。
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Radio was becoming more informal. In the early 60s you've got again new people coming into the domestic radio services, people like Jerry Mansol, for instance, who'd come from the World Service and takes over the home program. And his keen on more informality, less scriptedness. He wanted kind of something that was a bit sparkier and more more spontaneous.
电台越来越不正式。在60年代初，又有新人加入国内的广播服务，像杰里·曼索尔这样的人，他来自世界服务，接管了家庭节目。他倾向于更加不正式，不那么有脚本的东西。他想要一些更有活力和更加自发的东西。
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With portable recordings and magnetic tape becoming kind of cheaper and more available, you've got more actuality, you know, recording spontaneously interviews rather than having to script things in the studio. So all of these changes are taking place.
随着便携式录音和磁带的价格越来越便宜并且更加容易获取，你可以更多地记录真实的事情，比如现场采访而无需在工作室里编写脚本。所以所有这些变化都在发生。
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The biggest challenge in a way for BBC Radio in the early 60s was over music and needle time. And the simple reality the BBC came up against was that even if it wanted to broadcast more pop music, it wasn't able to.
在60年代初期，BBC广播面临的最大挑战是音乐和针头时间的问题。BBC面临的简单现实是，即使它想播放更多的流行音乐，也无法做到。
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It was restricted to something like 30 hours total of needle time. In other words, the amount of recorded music on gramophone records it could play in order to kind of honour agreements with the musicians, unions and performing rights society and publishers and so on. Across all channels, across all its radio channels, 30 hours.
为了遵守与音乐家、工会、表演权利协会和出版商的协议，该设备所能播放的由留声机唱片收录的音乐总时长被限制在大约30个小时左右。在其所有的广播频道中，总计只有30小时的播放时长。
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So it was really difficult. It had a few pop music programs, you know, Brian Matthews was trying to do his thing on a Saturday morning and so on. But really there wasn't the capacity to reflect those cultural changes that we talked about, that kind of youth quake in musical taste.
所以那真的很难。它有一些流行音乐节目，你知道，布莱恩·马修斯试图在周六早上做自己的事情等等。但实际上，没有能力反映我们所谈论的那些文化变革，那种音乐品味的青年大地震。
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And then what was the key factor that led the BBC to think, well, we do need to have a pop music station in our offering? Well, of course, it's the radio pirates. The pirates, they flourish in the mid 1960s.
那么，导致BBC认为我们确实需要在我们的节目中拥有一家流行音乐电台的关键因素是什么？当然，这是因为存在着无线电盗版。在20世纪60年代中期，盗版电台大行其道。
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So in Rage, Easter 1964 is when radio Caroline suddenly pops up on a kind of ship sailing around the British coast and within a short period you've got several pirate radio stations. It's interesting, existing on beyond the reach of kind of legislative authority.
因此，在1964年复活节期间，海盗电台“卡洛琳电台”突然出现在一艘绕着英国海岸航行的船上。很快就有了几个海盗电台。有趣的是，它们存在于立法机构无法管辖的范围之外。
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So they're not having to pay their dues to musical performers or publishers. They can play as much pop music as they want to and they have this amazing Buccaneer spirit and they have young presenters who are appealing to young listeners and millions of people are tuning in because the BBC is not offering anything for them and they're an extraordinary success but they are illegal and they are getting the UK authorities into trouble with the kind of in terms of its international obligations about wavelengths and security and payments and so on.
这些电台不需要向音乐表演者或音乐出版商支付会费。他们可以播放尽可能多的流行音乐，他们有一种令人惊叹的海盗精神，年轻的主持人吸引了年轻的听众，数百万人正在收听，因为BBC没有为他们提供任何东西，他们取得了非凡的成功，但是它们是非法的，并且它们在国际义务方面会让英国当局陷入困境，如频率和安全、支付等方面。
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So the government takes action to close down the pirates but it realizes there has to be some sort of legal alternative and it's the BBC that is lined up to provide this legal alternative and it emerges in September 1967 in the form of Radio One.
政府采取行动关闭盗版，但意识到必须有一些合法的替代方案。BBC被选为提供这种合法替代方案的机构，并于1967年9月以Radio One的形式推出。
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Now Radio One is a BBC pop radio channel. It's a huge innovation but of course it's part of a more general shake-up of radio because up until this point we've got this pyramid of three services. We've got the light program, the home service and the third and overnight they disappear and they're relaunched as Radio One, Radio Two which really is the old light program, Radio Three which is the old third program and Radio Four which is the old home service.
现在的Radio One是BBC的流行音乐广播频道。这是一项巨大的创新，当然它是更广泛的电台改革的一部分，因为到目前为止，我们有三个服务的金字塔结构。我们有轻松节目、家庭服务和第三节目，而它们在夜间消失，然后作为Radio One、Radio Two（真正的旧轻松节目）、Radio Three（旧第三节目）和Radio Four（旧家庭服务）重新推出。
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Cultural commentators in a way are a gog at this because the home service was regarded very much as the kind of the bedrock of the Rheathian BBC and yet here it was number. four, it seemed to be demoted in some way.
文化评论家对此感到惊奇，因为家庭服务一直被视为Rheathian BBC的基石，但在这里它排名第四，似乎被降职了。
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Then Radio One, the number one position was this new upstart pop station and you know as one of the commentaries in the press put it, this was or appeared to be aunties first freak out. So it was a kind of it was a seminal moment I think in terms of Radio in this launch of a dedicated pop station.
广播电台一开始的位置是这个新兴的流行音乐电台。正如媒体评论中的其中一个评论所说的，这似乎是老一辈的第一次失控。所以我认为在电台发射一个专门的流行音乐电台方面，这是一个开创性时刻。
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Who are some of the key figures and I suppose some of the key programs in this new Radio One, this new channel? Well before we talk about the presenters I think it's worth just flagging that the man behind it all in sense the controller who was Robyn Scott who rather like Hugh Carton Green was a kind of figure who'd been at the BBC for a long time.
在这个新的Radio One电视频道中，有哪些关键人物和方案？在我们讨论主持人之前，我想提一下的是，这一切的背后是控制者Robyn Scott，他有点像Hugh Carton Green，是一个在BBC工作了很长时间的人物。
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Robyn Scott the white tornado as he was called because of his kind of shock of white hair was someone who worked in the French service going back to the war time. So he wasn't a kind of he wasn't a young Turk. He wasn't he wasn't part of the youth quake as it were but he knew that his job was to recruit the kind of presenters who would reflect some of that bucconiering spirit and excitement of the pirates.
罗宾·斯科特被称为白色旋风，因为他头上一簇刺状的白发。他在法国服务期间开始工作，回溯至战争时期，因此并不是一个年轻的土耳其人。他不是青年地震的一部分，但他知道他的工作是招募那些反映海盗冒险精神和兴奋的主持人。
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So it was Robyn Scott who set about if you're like organising some some key bits of headhunting as the pirates were shut down. Perhaps the most important figure first of all was Tony Blackburn who was the breakfast show presenter on the new Radio One and he'd been at Radio London and was headhunted from from that and I mean in many ways he was typical of the daytime at Radio One, disjocke, he was kind of breezy, he was chatty, he was a little bit flirtatious as well.
罗宾·斯科特就像组织关键的人才招聘一样，当海盗广播被封杀时。可能最重要的人物首先是Tony Blackburn，他是新的Radio One早间节目主持人，曾在Radio London工作，并被从那里挖走。从许多方面来看，他代表了Radio One白天的典型零播，他非常轻松自在，健谈，而且有点轻浮。
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There was there was this notion that the presenters who were all at this stage men were sort of husband substitutes for the quotes the housewife audience. There was a lot of sort of stereotypical kind of thinking here but he was he was a consummate professional in terms of you know managing the studio and playing the records and so on and he loved it you know he loved the jingles he loved the chat and a perfect figure for the breakfast show in these early days.
在当时，有一个想法认为主持人（都是男性）代表家庭主妇观众的丈夫。尽管有很多刻板印象的想法，但他是一个完美的专业人士，可以处理好音乐播放和台前管理等方面，并且他很喜欢节目中的聊天和歌曲，这使他成为早期早餐节目的完美人选。
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There was a saying that eventually emerged Radio One which was that it was this it was ratings by day reputation by night and so the idea of the daytime show was to be as popular and accessible and as bright and breezy as possible.
在电台一台出现后，流传着一句话，即它是由日常收视率和夜间声誉决定的。白天节目的想法是尽可能地受欢迎、易于接近、明亮轻快。
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You don't you don't need to be passionate or particularly interested in the music you just need to kind of share it with the audience but at night time and at weekends you've got more specialist presenters who are passionate fans about particular kinds of music and I suppose the most emblematic figure there is John Peel who joins again from Radio London where he'd been briefly presenting a cult program called Perthume Garden which was a kind of eclectic collection of all sorts of kind of music at the margins of of of of rock and John Peel had this sort of hippie-ish sort of cult style ready made off the shelf for Radio One he'd kind of developed it at the Perthume Garden but he'd also spent a few years in the states doing late night shifts on local radio stations buying lots of records immersing himself in the music scene so he was incredibly knowledgeable about music and he saw his job actually in very very very wrythean ways he might not necessarily have talked about wrythe but he described his task as you know making people aware of music that they might not otherwise have heard it's a classic wrythean ambition.
在这里，你不需要对音乐有热情或特别有兴趣，你只需要与听众分享音乐。但在晚上和周末，你会有更多热衷于特定音乐类型的专业主持人。其中最具代表性的人物是John Peel，他从在伦敦电台短暂主持的一档舞蹈音乐节目“珂品花园”中加入了广播一台。这个节目是一个各种各样的音乐风格的混合体，处于摇滚边缘，而约翰·皮尔则拥有一种嬉皮士式的独特风格，这是他在珂品花园中发展起来的。他在美国的几年中在当地电台的深夜班购买了许多唱片，并沉浸于音乐场景之中，因此他对音乐非常了解。他将自己的工作描述为让人们意识到他们可能不会听到的音乐，这是一个典型的威瑟安野心。
I suppose a third person who's definitely worth mentioning is Annie Nightingale now she's not there at the beginning in fact she tries to join Radio One she's a she's an experienced music journalist exactly the kind of person who you'd imagine Radio One would want but she's in a sense a very clear victim of the kind of sexism in terms of Radio One's recruitment policy this idea that presenters needed to be men because they were husband substitutes but in 1970 I think the BBC realizes that it can't sustain this position and so she joins Radio One and it's very much in that same tradition of John Peel of being a music enthusiast who who who sort of shares her passion and selects music carefully she's not just putting on the music that she's been told to play she's involved in that selection process and so right from the beginning you've got a Radio One which has this sort of central sort of flavor of kind of you know cheesy.
我想要提到的第三个人是安妮·奈丁戈尔，她绝对值得一提。她起初并不在电台，实际上她试图加入Radio One。她是一名经验丰富的音乐记者，比你想象中的Radio One想要的那种人才更出色。然而，她在某种程度上是Radio One招聘政策中性别歧视的一个很明显的受害者。那时候，招聘主持人必须是男性，因为他们是夫妻代替品。但是，到了1970年，BBC意识到这种立场是无法持续的，于是她加入了Radio One，并且继承了约翰·皮尔的音乐爱好者的传统，与自己的激情一起精心挑选音乐，而不仅仅是播放她被告知播放的音乐。所以从一开始，Radio One就具有这种中心的“伪装”的风味。
Poptastic music as it were but also has this sort of interesting activity at the margins which is much more experimental and radical and exploratory writing at the end of the 50s some commentators wondered whether broadcasting might help create a common culture in Britain as we reached the end of the 60s this out of the 70s had that come to pass I don't think it had I mean you know it was someone like Richard Hoggut for instance really hoped and believed that broadcasting had that ability to forge a common culture but there's another cultural commentator who's important at this stage Raymond Williams who famously says culture is ordinary it's part of everyday life and the reality was that everyday life showed that tastes in a way were diverging and that sort of class distinctions were just as embedded as they ever had been and that new distinctions especially that that one between age range you know the generational distinctions were becoming stronger so I think that the difficulty for the BBC is that actually you know culture as it were is sort of fragmenting and diversifying.
这种流行音乐可以说是时尚的，但是在边缘上也存在着一些有趣的活动，更多是以实验性、激进的探索写作为主。在50年代末，一些评论家曾经想过广播是否可以帮助创造英国的共同文化，而当70年代的出现时，我们是否已经实现了这一点？我认为没有。例如，理查德·霍格特等人曾经希望并相信广播有能力铸造出共同的文化，但是在这个阶段，还有另一位重要的文化评论家雷蒙德·威廉姆斯，他著名地说过“文化是平凡的，是日常生活的一部分”，而现实是，日常生活中的品味在某种程度上正在分歧，而阶级差异仍然像以前一样固化，新的差异，特别是年龄范围的差异，正在变得更加明显，所以我认为BBC的困境在于，文化在某种程度上正在分裂和多元化。
And the BBC's response in a way is the only one it could make which is not to force everything into a kind of middle brow that might be the average of all of these cultures but to kind of embrace and reflect this to this fragmentation this diversity so you know it doesn't it doesn't go high brow it doesn't go low brow it doesn't go middle brow it kind of goes wide brow in a way and and widens the range so yes you've got top of the pops and you've got Kenneth Clark civilisation and all sorts of things like that that stretch the range and underpinning that I suppose is an acceptance that not everything will be liked by everyone and that the kind of programs that need to be made do not need to please everyone.
英国广播公司的回应方式是唯一可行的方式，不强迫所有文化都达到平均水平，而是要拥抱和反映这种分裂和多样性，这样它就不会是高档、低档或中档，而是广泛的，扩展了范围。在这种情况下，你会有流行之王和肯尼思·克拉克的《文明》等各种各样的节目，这些节目拓展了范围，在此基础上，我想要强调的是，不是所有节目都能让每个人都喜欢，需要制作的节目不一定要取悦所有人。
And that's where I think we can see the importance of the key change in the BBC in the 1960s under Hugh Carton Green and through that generational change which is that progressive ideas if you like had percolated through the system it wasn't a kind of total revolution you've still got the traditional alongside the news but you've got this key idea which has taken root that broadcasting television radio doesn't any longer have to kind of think that everything that goes on air has to be suitable for everyone and that I think is a really important distinction between the BBC at the end of the decade and the BBC at the beginning of the decade that was David Hendy you can read more from David in every issue of BBC History magazine and his book The BBC A People's History is out now published by Prof. Carton Green.
在我看来，这就是在1960年代休·卡顿·格林领导下BBC关键变革的重要性所在，通过这种代际变革，渐进的思想已经渗透到了系统里。这不是一种总体性的革命，传统节目与新闻节目仍然并存，但是这个关键性的思想已经扎根了——广播电视不再需要认为所有上播的节目都适合所有人观看，我认为这是20世纪60年代末BBC和20世纪60年代初BBC之间一个非常重要的区别。 David Hendy是这样说的，您可以在BBC历史杂志的每一期中阅读更多关于David的内容，他的书《BBC的人民史》现在由Prof出版。卡顿·格林出版。
Thanks for listening this podcast was produced by Jack Bateman.
感谢收听本期播客，本集由杰克·贝特曼制作。