Fleeing revolution: Russians exiles in Paris

Welcome to the History Extra Podcast, fascinating historical conversations from BBC History Magazine and BBC History revealed.

欢迎来到历史Extra播客，这里有来自BBC历史杂志和BBC历史揭示的有趣历史对话。

Paris has long been a popular destination among Russian elites. But in 1917, the Russian Revolution saw unprecedented scores of aristocrats and artists fleet to the city. Speaking to Matt Elton, Helen Rappaport charts some of their stories, the dramatic shift in circumstances that many endured and what the city's inhabitants made of the new arrivals.

巴黎一直是俄罗斯精英们的热门目的地。但在1917年，俄国革命使大批贵族和艺术家涌入了该城市。海伦·拉帕波特在接受马特·埃尔顿采访时，记录了其中一些人的故事，以及他们所经历的戏剧性转变，并介绍了城市居民对这些新来者的看法。

Helen, your fascinating new book after the Roman Ovs tells a group biography of some people who were dislocated by the currents of world history and whose lives tell us something about the time in which they lived. To start with, I wondered if you could just sort of give a nutshell, a brief overview of what it is, the period your book explores and what it sets out to do, I suppose.

海伦，你的新书《罗曼·奥夫之后》引人入胜，讲述了一组被世界历史大潮所冲击的人的传记，他们的生活告诉我们有关他们所生活的时代的一些内容。首先，我想问问你能否简要概括一下你的书探索的时期和它的目的是什么。

Well, when I originally conceived the book, I was going to take it pretty much from when there was an absolute mass exodus of the intelligentsia of the professional classes and the remnants of the aristocracy after the revolutions. So fundamentally, I was going to take the book from when the White Army counter revolution failed and the remnants of that army were forced south by the red army, followed by a history of the revolution. And it was followed by a huge number thousands and thousands of civilians families and sympathizers of the whites who followed themselves down through Ukraine. It's all very, there's some rather tragic echoes here to Crimea to get on boats and get out of Russia. And the way really they could get out at the time was south via the Black Sea and across to Constantinople.

当我最初构思这本书时，我打算从智力阶层和专业阶层的绝对大规模外流以及革命后贵族的残部时期开始，基本上我会从白军反革命失败和该军的残余被红军逼到南方开始，再接着讲述革命的历史。此外，还有成千上万的平民家庭和白军的同情者跟随他们穿过乌克兰南下。这些情况有着一些相当悲惨的回响，一些人不得不登船逃离俄罗斯，他们那时唯一的逃脱途径是通过黑海南下，然后穿过君士坦丁堡。

But in order to really point up the tragic change in circumstance that many of these people suffered and they many of them had had comfortable lives in Russia before the revolution. They've been professionals lawyers doctors, university professors, journalists writers, plus the aristocrats of course. In order to really show the dramatic change in their lives, I decided to start the book in fact at the end of the bellapark in you know Marcel Proust Paris.

然而，为了真正突显出这些人遭受的悲惨变故，以及这些人在俄国革命前过着舒适的生活，他们当中许多人都是专业律师、医生、大学教授、记者和作家，当然还有贵族。为了真正展示他们生活中的戏剧性变化，我决定将这本书的开头放在玛赛尔·普鲁斯特的巴黎结束的地方。

When at that time many, many wealthy Russians were regularly chewing and praying to Paris. It was their favorite watering hole. You know, there was shopping at worth and Cartier and dining at the Ritz and swanning around spending prodigious amounts of money. Plus in that period, the 1900s before World War One before my story kicks off, there was an incredible influx of creative Russian talent into Paris artists, sculptors, but primarily and predominantly the Ballyroos, Stiagles Ballyroos. And I wanted to show this incredibly vibrant emigrate scene that the Russians had already created in that city because it had always been a favorite place for Russians to go.

在那个时候，许多富有的俄国人经常涌向巴黎，他们把它当作自己最喜欢的聚会场所。他们在那里购物，拜访卡地亚(Cartier)、在里茨(Ritz)餐厅用餐，并奢侈地挥霍钱财。此外，在那段时间，即在我的故事开始之前的1900年代，也就是第一次世界大战之前，巴黎引进了大量的俄罗斯创作人才，包括艺术家、雕塑家，但主要的是Ballyroos、Stiagles Ballyroos。我想展示的是俄罗斯人已经在巴黎创造了一个非常充满活力的移民场景，因为那里始终是俄罗斯人最喜欢去的地方。

I wanted to create a sense of contrast between that and what happened later where you know suddenly all these wealthy aristocrats return to Paris after the revolution when they've on that massive exit of South of Russia at the end of 1919 and in 1920. They come back and greatly reduced circumstances and you see people dramatically impoverished homeless, ruthless, impoverished. And really I wanted to take it from there to examine this very profound sense of the loss of the homeland and the motherland that many of them lived with for the rest of their lives and they never really adjusted because of that. The book really evocatively I think charts that contrast to head back to the sort of the beginnings of of this story.

我想制造一种对比感，将之前发生的情况与后来的情况对比起来。 在革命之后，所有这些富有的贵族突然回到巴黎，他们在1919年末和1920年从俄罗斯南部大规模逃离。他们以大大降低的生活水平，极度贫困无家可归的人出现在了人们的视线中。我真的希望从这里开始，探讨许多人一生中都会生活在中失去祖国和母亲的深刻感受，他们永远无法适应。这本书非常生动地描述了这种对比，返回这个故事的开端。

What was it specifically about Paris that meant that people from Russia was so drawn to it during the period your book starts. Well of course Paris was free for a start in Tsarist Russia there was fairly strict censorship and controls over what you could and couldn't write and publish.

在你的书所涵盖的时期里，为什么俄国的人们对巴黎如此着迷？那么，巴黎究竟有什么特殊的魅力呢？首先，当然是因为巴黎是自由的。在沙皇俄国，有相当严格的审查和控制，限制你能否写作和出版。

Paris had always been very attractive to Russians pretty much from the end of the Crimean war onwards. I certainly you know people like the writer took any of settled there in I think the 1850s and lived in Paris but where it really kicked off was in the 1860s with the first big exposition. I think it's 1868 that they held held after all the hostilities the Crimean war when Russian France course have been on opposing sides.

从克里米亚战争结束后开始，巴黎一直对俄罗斯人非常具有吸引力。我认为，像这位作家一样的人肯定有一些在19世纪50年代定居在巴黎，但真正引发热潮的是在1860年代的第一次大型博览会。我认为在1868年他们举办了这项活动，这是在克里米亚战争之后的敌对行动之后，俄罗斯和法国当然处于对立面。

There was his burst of interest in Paris by wealthy Russians from the 1860s and it became a hugely popular watering hole as I've said for the aristocracy who also cause patronized the resorts of particularly can and niece and also in Britain in places like that.

从19世纪60年代起，富有的俄罗斯人对巴黎产生了浓厚的兴趣，因此巴黎成为了尤其是康和尼斯等度假胜地的贵族们经常光顾的一处非常受欢迎的地方。同时，在英国也有类似的地方，如我之前所说的那些地方，受到了他们的赞助。

So there was already quite a considerable influx of wealthy Russians into Paris in the final four decades of the 19th century many of them even had apartments and homes in Paris, for example some of the Russian grand dukes like Grand Duke Paul bought a beautiful house in the wider Bologna.

所以，19世纪最后四十年，已经有相当多的富裕俄罗斯人涌入巴黎，其中许多人甚至在巴黎拥有公寓和房屋，例如一些俄罗斯大公，如保罗大公在博洛尼亚的一所漂亮房子。

Grand Duke Alexis had a flat in Paris and in fact became almost permanently a Paris resident and Grand Duke Vladimir came back and forth and with them came their wives and their jewels and their glamour.

大公爵阿列克西在巴黎有一套公寓，事实上几乎成为了巴黎的居民。大公爵弗拉基米尔来来回回，他们的妻子和珠宝和魅力随之而来。

And you know if you wanted to see and be seen and go to any posh parties in Paris you are sure to bump into a grand duke or a prince or account or someone Russian and they even feature a couple of them briefly in Marseille Ploust.

如果你想看见，被看见并参加巴黎的任何高档派对，那么你肯定会遇到一个大公爵、王子、贵族或者俄罗斯人，他们甚至在《马赛皮露斯特》中短暂地出现了几个。

I wanted to get a sense of what the atmosphere would have been like in Paris during this earlier period. How extravagant and how lavish were some of these lifestyles you talk about in the book. Oh incredibly extravagant so many of the grand dukes and their wives came to Paris that him and were hanging out in all the top restaurants and and swanky casinos and places that there was this thing called Laturnedic on Duke the grand dukes tour, which was a tour of the high high class sort of slightly dubious.

我想要了解巴黎早期的氛围是如何的。你在书中所描述的一些奢华生活方式有多奢靡。哦，非常奢华。许多贵族和他们的夫人来到巴黎，在所有顶级餐厅、豪华赌场和场所闲逛。还有一种叫做“Duke the grand dukes tour”的活动，是一个高高档次、稍微有些可疑的旅游团。

And nightclubs and sort of high class brothels and gambling dens and various other places in Paris that all these grand dukes are acquainted and and they're quite a few anecdotes of them spending a lavish amounts of money you know on on high class court is earns and whining and dining.

在巴黎，夜店、高档妓院、赌场以及其他一些场所，这些大公爵都非常熟悉。有很多轶事讲述他们在这些场所豪掷重金，享受高档宴会和美食。

And thinking you know thinking the money was never going to stop coming, which is why it's such a point of contrast when you see someone like. For example, he's one of the main characters in my book, grand duke to me tree public, who one of the one of the gay young blades, one of the younger members of the Romanov family, swanning around Paris in this enormous car, whining and dining women and giving them you know presence of Cartier jewels and sending the boxes of all kids and cigarettes as gifts and.

在你认为钱永远不会停止涌入的时候，你以为自己了解了一切这是为什么当你看到像我书中的一个主要角色——"公爵"这样的人时，会产生强烈反差。他是我书中的一位主角，对我来说，他是一位年轻的同性恋成员之一，属于罗曼诺夫家族的年轻成员之一，在巴黎奔波，驾着一辆巨大的汽车，接待女人们，送她们卡地亚的珠宝礼物和送烟盒及香烟作为礼物。

You see him swanning around Paris in the years before the war and then arriving after, of course, the day bark of being involved in the murder of Rasputin he arrived back in Paris in about 1921 completely broke. And I'm really what's so extraordinary but a lot of these ex aristocrats like to me tree sort of he he dined out on his celebrities you know so he would still be seen in the rits and all the posh places that he'd hung out in before as long as somebody else was picking up the tab and he very quickly he very quickly found himself a very wealthy patron in the shape of Coco Chanel who was.

你可以看到他在战前的几年在巴黎晃荡，然后在被卷入谋杀拉斯普京事件当天之后，他在1921年回到巴黎时身无分文。这么特别的一件事是，他这样的贵族后代还会像梅树一样神气活现，四处借势取利。他会出现在贵族们经常光顾的丽兹酒店等高档场所，只要有人请客就行。不久之后，他便找到了一位极为慷慨的赞助人，那就是可可·香奈儿。

Just coming into her celebrity and and it's had established a very successful fashioner telly in Paris and for a while he hadn't affair with her and swan around with her she actually in fact had already moved on from Stravinsky. She talked about the Russian men all being terribly sad pathetic creatures and the only the thing that kept them from the void of despair was drinking basically and she in a way encapsulate this terrible melancholy of a lot of the displaced Russians particularly the aristocracy in Paris who are down on their uppers.

这位女性刚走红，她在巴黎创立了一个非常成功的高端定制品牌。有一阵子，她与史特拉汶斯基有染，一起出入于名利场所，但实际上她已经与他分手了。她谈论过俄罗斯男人都是悲惨而可怜的存在，他们唯一能逃避沮丧的方法就是喝酒。本质上，她体现了很多被流放到巴黎、尤其是贵族们的可怕忧郁。

And of course it was in a way the women who were far more into pricing than the displaced men at creating an income for themselves because a lot of the Russian women the aristocratic women went into the fashion trade or if they were not working as semstruses and fashion and setting up fashion houses a lot of the Russian women were favoured as models as manacan by the French fashion houses.

当然，就创造收入而言，那些被流放的男性相对而言比较被动，而女性则更注重定价。很多俄罗斯女性，特别是贵族女性，进入了时装行业，或者成为裁缝和时尚品牌创始人。许多法国时装店喜欢用俄罗斯女性作为模特或者人体模特。

As some of the names you've just mentioned there Stravinsky Chanel suggest this is a book that's packed with yeah huge figures in their own right some of them are less familiar certainly the word for me how difficult was it to choose who to follow and how did you go about doing that.

你刚刚提到的一些名字，比如斯特拉文斯基和香奈儿，表明这本书充满了很多的大人物。其中有些人对我来说比较陌生。那么，选择跟随哪些人并进行了哪些筛选过程？这个任务有多难呢？

Well I had a very clear idea of how I needed to write the book I had to try and find representative figures for each of the various kind of groups of people who went Paris so obviously you got your aristocrats you've got your writers and journalists your poets your artists the dancers the white Russian X Army who'd all flooded in and of course under the surface.

我非常清楚我需要如何写这本书，我必须尽力寻找每种前往巴黎的人群中的代表性人物，因此您有贵族、作家和记者、诗人、艺术家、舞蹈家、白俄罗斯前军人都涌入了巴黎，当然在地下还有一些人。

Quite a lot of political intrigues and spies and all sorts of people the only real problem with the book is in terms of documentation obviously quite a lot of the aristocracy are documented or wrote memoirs or wrote letters and similarly the writers and journalists people like Evan Boonin was a major figure of the immigration in Paris and and one again one of my key figures.

这本书包括了相当多的政治阴谋、间谍和各种各样的人物，唯一的真正问题在于文献方面。显然，相当多的贵族的文献、回忆录和信件已经记录下来，同样的，像埃文·布尼恩这样的作家、记者也是移民在巴黎的主要人物之一，再次成为我的关键人物之一。

In the book but finding the stories of ordinary Russian souffle that the kind of people who had quite good jobs in in Zara Strascher but who now were literally you know waiting tables washing windows driving taxes or as a huge number ended up doing working on the assembly lines that the big Renault factory at beyond cool finding accounts of those lives was much harder.

在这本书里，但是发现那些普通俄罗斯人的故事，他们曾经在沙拉斯切一带有着相当不错的工作，但现在却真的在等候服务员、洗窗户、开出租车，或者像大多数人那样在雷诺最大的工厂组装线上工作，这些人要描述他们的生活更加困难。

Because many of them just didn't really write about it their lives were a grind of staying solvent keeping a roof ever had just earning enough to survive. It was more the writers who talked about you know how awful it was trying to kind of earn a living from doing small piecework for the very low circulation Russian emigrate papers and magazines. This was a huge step down to them after having you know been big figures in Russia as Boonin was he'd been a great celebrity a great figure in Russian literature in Paris you know even he constantly complained about trying to make a living.

因为很多人并没有真正地写过他们的生活，他们的生活是为了维持生计、保持屋顶，仅仅挣够生存所需。更多的是那些作家谈到了，你知道，试图通过为俄罗斯低发行量的移民报纸和杂志做小型工作来挣钱是多么糟糕。对他们来说，这是一个巨大的退步，因为他们在俄罗斯曾经是重要人物，如布宁，他曾是俄罗斯文学界的一位伟大名人，在巴黎也是一位伟大的人物，但他仍然不停地抱怨挣钱的难度。

So in terms of representing all the different groups of people who ended up in Paris I tried very very hard to find people who are less well known but who had interesting stories and who really suffered and struggled because it would have been very easy to cop out and just write about all the displaced aristocrats. So I didn't want to write just about them so I made a real effort to find people in it took a lot of searching and you can only find most of these people searching in primary Russian sources you're not going to find them or French sources there are one or two French sources on the Russian emigrates in Paris but they're not particularly well none of them.

在代表所有到巴黎的不同人群方面，我非常非常努力地寻找那些不太知名但有趣故事、经历了真正的苦难和挣扎的人，因为如果只写流离失所的贵族，则容易陷入俗套。因此，我不想只写关于他们的故事，我做出了真正的努力去寻找这些人，这需要大量的搜索，你只能在俄语的原始资料中找到他们，而不是在法语资料中，虽然有一两个法语资料是关于流亡在巴黎的俄罗斯人，但它们并不特别好。

I'm very good at all about the poor people who went who really struggled I really had to work very hard to get context on the thousands of Russians living out at Bianco which was where the Renault and Citroen factories were the ones who worked on the assembly lines where they had a whole Russian little village there with Russian shops Russian church Russian hairdressers. Everything you know everything was Russian they spoke Russian and they lived in a little Russian microcosm there and that particularly interested me that community.

我非常了解那些贫困的人们，他们曾经真正地挣扎，我为了了解住在Bianco的数千名俄罗斯人的背景，真的必须非常努力地工作。那里是雷诺和思铂睿工厂，这些工厂的工人在装配线上工作，那里有一个完整的俄罗斯小村庄，有俄罗斯商店、俄罗斯教堂和俄罗斯理发店。所有的东西都是俄罗斯风格，人们说俄语，住在一个俄语微观世界里，这尤其让我感兴趣。

Still to come on the history extra podcast. I have friends in Russia you know intellectual friends artistic creative people and they have told me that exactly the same kind of people are leaving have left after the war broke out that left in around 1920.

在历史额外播客中还有更多内容。我在俄罗斯有些朋友，他们是知识分子、艺术家、创意人士，他们告诉我，正是同样类型的人在战争爆发后离开了，就像在1920年左右离开的人一样。

To briefly zoom out a bit in this story we've mentioned that there's a pivot that happens in this book between what happened before and what happened. Yeah for people who might be coming to this subject completely cold who don't know anything about this subject can you in the sort of broad as possible term set out what was happening in Russia that led to this change in circumstances.

简单地回顾一下这个故事，我们提到在这本书中发生了一个转折点，它从发生之前到之后发生了变化。对于那些对这个问题完全不了解的人，你能不能以尽可能广泛的方式说明在俄罗斯发生了什么事情，导致了这种情况的改变。

Well the Russian revolution had broken in 1917 and from that there were two revolutions won the popular revolt and the big protest marches in February on the Russian calendar and then the Bolshevik coup at the end of the year in October but from the moment the revolution broke people started leaving particularly people who were antipathetic to the new regime. People opposed you know people landed gently and people like that who had somewhere they could go to like bolt holes in Paris and quite a few did or homes elsewhere but the real push came with the Bolshevik take over in the autumn of 1918 because it was then made clear by Lenin and the Bolsheviks that you know the Roman officer particularly were public enemy number one all the old aristocracy were.

1917年，俄罗斯发生了两次革命。第一次革命发生在二月份，人民进行了大规模游行抗议。第二次革命发生在十月份，布尔什维克发动政变。自从革命开始，持反对态度的人们开始离开国家。比如，土地贵族等人有钱有地可以去巴黎或其他地方躲避，于是离开国家的人数开始增加。而真正的推动力量则是在1918年秋天布尔什维克接管政权之后。此时，列宁和布尔什维克明确表示，所有罗曼诺夫王朝的官员和旧贵族都是公敌。

You know that they were going to be hounded down and chased out or murdered and many were quite a lot of the role not so killed without even being able to get out of Russia as people will know because I've written three other books about the Roman of family and their murder in a Katrinburg but there are also other members of the family murdered and but as time went on and then the civil war broke out in Russia. At the end of 1918 over the next couple of years you get a counter revolution growing between various opposition groups including monarchists ex aristocracy all kinds of people they weren't necessarily wanting to put the Zarbak on the throne they just were vehemently anti Bolshevik and during that very turbulent period of a couple of years more and more people were becoming displaced being driven out.

你知道他们会被追捕、赶走或被谋杀，而且很多人在被杀害之前根本无法逃离俄罗斯。这是大家所知道的，因为我已经写了三本有关罗曼诺夫家族及其在叶卡捷琳堡的被谋杀事件的书籍。除了被杀害的家族成员之外，还有其他成员也被杀害。但随着时间的推移，俄罗斯爆发了内战。在1918年底和接下来的几年里，包括各种反对派组织和君主主义者在内的反革命逐渐兴起，他们并不一定想让沙皇回到王位上，而是强烈反对布尔什维克。在那个动荡不安的几年期间，越来越多的人被迫流离失所，被驱逐出境。

They're driven out of their homes by Trotsky's new red army and fearful for their lives especially especially after the Zarb and his family were murdered in July 1918 then the following day the study its assistant and several grand juts and prints were murdered not far away then in January 1919 four Russian grand juts also were shot one of them tragically later character in my book grand juts and had this beautiful house in Paris rather foolishly went back to Russia just before the war and then of course got rounded up after the revolution and shot his wife got out so there was a huge displacement of people in Russia they reckon at least a million left during that period of revolution and civil war and Russians went all over the world.

他们被托洛茨基的新红军赶出家园，并且为生命的安全感到担忧，特别是在查尔博和他的家人在1918年7月被谋杀后，随后的一天，他们的助手和几个大宗和印刷品在不远处被谋杀。然后在1919年1月，四名俄罗斯大宗也被枪杀。其中一个悲剧性地后来出现在我的书中，他在巴黎拥有一座美丽的房子，但在战争爆发前返回俄罗斯，当然在革命后被逮捕并枪杀，但他的妻子逃出生天。因此，在俄罗斯有很多人被迫离开，据估计在那个革命和内战期间至少有一百万人离开了俄罗斯，俄罗斯人遍布世界各地。

Many went to Berlin because that was quickest and easiest to get to and it was kind of on a crossroads in Europe to getting to other places. Others went to Serbia, others went to Italy. As such, the first emigres didn't really get to America till a bit later till they were pretty much driven out of Paris with the onslaught of the war and the Nazis but there was huge movement of people and for most of the Russians getting out during the after the revolution and during the civil war.

许多人去了柏林，因为那是最快、最容易到达的地方，而且它位于欧洲交通要道，方便前往其他地方。其他人去了塞尔维亚，其他人去了意大利。因此，最早的移民们直到战争和纳粹的袭击迫使他们离开巴黎之后才真正到达美国，但人们的迁徙规模是巨大的，对于大多数俄国人来说，是在革命后和内战期间逃离的。

A few got out north by our Finland but that route became inaccessible. A few went to the far east and ended up in Harbin. There was a whole Russian slave of emigres in Harbin and even in Shanghai but most of them it they couldn't get get out directly west at the time because the war was still raging until 1918 so most of them went south and so you get this incredible bottleneck where they forced further further south to the ports of Novoresisk and to Odessa. Odessa was another major exit point for many of the Russians fleeing but a few more a lot of the white armies in fact as they were driven south by the red army ended up bottled up in Crimea and got out from Sevastopol on a whole a mishmash of boats and some all kinds of vessels came to the rescue including French and British vessels but there was a terrible scene of chaos with thousands and thousands of people fighting to get on a whole medley of different boats and it's not quite like Dunkirk in that there were lots of little boats as the Dunkirk rescue was from Odessa and there were various places there were some old naval ships from the Zarras Navy there were some Allied ships the Brits and French and ships but there were a lot of other sort of merchant ships and tramp steamers and a home conglomeration of vessels took these people across the Black Sea to Constantinople.

有几个人北部通过芬兰逃离，但那条路变得不可达。有几个人去了远东，并最终来到哈尔滨。在哈尔滨存在着一批俄国难民，甚至在上海还有一些，但大多数人当时无法直接向西逃离，因为战争一直持续到1918年，所以他们大多向南走，因此就会出现一个难以置信的瓶颈，他们不得不继续向南，到达诺沃罗西斯克和敖德萨港口。敖德萨是许多逃离俄罗斯的人的另一个重要出口，但另有一些人，确切地说是许多白军部队，在被红军向南逼近时被困在克里米亚，从塞瓦斯托波尔出发逃离。各种各样的船只，包括法国和英国的船只，都铺满了整个黑海，发生了一场可怕的混乱场面，数千人争相登上各种船只。这不完全像敦刻尔克，因为从敦刻尔克进行营救，有许多小船，而从敖德萨进行营救时，有各种地方，包括沙皇海军的一些旧军舰，以及一些联盟国的船只，包括英国和法国的船只，但还有许多其他的商船、杂货轮和一个混杂的船队带着这些人穿越黑海到了君士坦丁堡。

By 1920, you have an enormous refugee problem in Constantinople at one point well they reckon thousands and thousands pass through but maybe a quarter of a million but certainly there were huge numbers of penniless destitute homeless frightened Russians stranded in Constantinople from 1920 to about 1922 who then had to be helped by the League of Nations for sending people there and various other relief organizations but it took time of these people to be able to be helped to find new homes elsewhere.

在1920年，君士坦丁堡（Constantinople）面临着巨大的难民问题，他们估计有数千人通过此地，但可能有25万人，但无疑有大量没有钱、赤贫、流浪和恐惧的俄罗斯人滞留在君士坦丁堡，从1920年到大约1922年需要由国际联盟和各种救援组织帮助这些人，但这需要时间，这些人才能得到帮助，找到其他新的居所。

Given these desperate circumstances in this turmoil people would have ended up in Paris really suddenly without a clear plan of what to do and how how how they would live how did they start to build new lives and what did they feel about the nation they've been forcibly kind of forced out of I suppose. Well, first of all, how did they build new lives? This exactly encapsulates the problem. You got to imagine many of the aristocrats who landed up there and the officer class the well-educated people the men only knew one thing and that was they'd known the military life in the white Russian army so they could maybe drive a car or drive a should be chauffers or taxi drivers and the Russian taxi drivers in Paris became legendary but many of the aristocrats and one of them said this granddue to me to Pavlovich had a sister Maria Pavlovna who said well we just didn't know how to earn a living. These people have lived incredibly privileged lives they'd never had to lift a finger they never had to you know carry money around with them particularly so these people suddenly had to support themselves.

在这种动荡的情况下，人们可能会突然降临巴黎，没有明确的计划，不知道该做些什么，他们将如何生活，他们如何开始建立新生活，以及他们对被强迫离开的国家的感受是什么。首先，他们如何建立新生活？这恰好概括了问题。你必须想象许多贵族和军官阶层以及受过良好教育的人最多只了解一件事，那就是他们知道白俄罗斯军队的军事生活，所以他们可能会开车，成为司机或出租车司机，在巴黎的俄罗斯出租车司机成为传奇，但许多贵族，其中一个对我说的是帕夫洛维奇 手中有一个大公，他的妹妹玛丽亚·帕夫洛夫娜说：“我们不知道如何谋生。这些人生活极其优越，他们从来没有动过手指，特别是不需要带钱，所以这些人突然不得不自行支持自己。”

The extraordinary thing about the women, and again this goes back to a catchphrase that was in circulation was that the men drive taxes and the women so for a living because interestingly the one thing all these gentile ladies could do was so because many of them in brought up at home with governess is had been taught to so and embroider so many of them actually set up their own fashion houses and Maria Pavlovna is a case in point she set up her own fashion house which was called Kitmeer and she worked there with her in-laws prints and prints as Puthiartin and did quite well because through Dmitry Pavlovich, her brother, she met Coco Chanel and Coco Chanel loved Maria's beautiful Slavic embroidery and the kind of sort of Russian feel of her work and kind of you know signed her up to provide. work for her first Slavic inspired fashion collection in 1922 others print as Felix Yusupov who with Dmitry Pavlovich had plotted the murder of Rasputin he and his beautiful wife Urina who looked like a mannequin and was very photogenic they to set up their own fashion house Irfei which was Irina and Felix combined and even brought out a perfume like Shoneldi with number five and various other people there was a house a berry and various other smaller scale fashion houses prints and his wife also had a fashion house but unfortunately they all suffered the same fate which was the downturn economically in the 1930s but at least the women and for the most part many of the women doing the sewing and working in the French fashion industry were probably doing quite menial in italias on sewing machines or doing piecework in their polkae little hotel rooms but it was the women who kept the men going because unless the men were most of the Russian men were waiting tables or being MCs at posh Russian star restaurants or driving taxes or working on the assembly line at Renault but there are many many stories including even in George Orwell's wonderful classic account down and out in Paris and London where he had a friend called Boris and they used to trump the streets of Paris together looking for work and they both end up washing dishes and that is not an exaggeration a lot of Russians men even you know the humiliation they had to suffer having perhaps come from a very good profession in Russia being reduced to washing dishes and washing windows and doing the most awful menial jobs

关于这些女性的非凡之处，一个广为人知的口号是男人开车跑税，女人靠缝纫生活。有趣的是，这些绅士阶层的女性中，所有人都擅长缝纫。因为这些女性大多在家里与家庭教师一起成长，学会了绣花和缝纫，很多人甚至开设了自己的时装店，其中玛丽亚·帕夫洛芙娜就是一个例子。她开设了自己的时装店，名为“基特米尔”，与她的姻亲普蒂亚京一起工作，并取得了不错的成绩。由于她的兄弟德米特里·帕夫洛维奇，她认识了可可·香奈儿。可可·香奈儿喜欢玛丽亚漂亮的斯拉夫刺绣和她作品的俄罗斯风情，在1922年委托她为她的第一批斯拉夫风格时装设计提供了材料。 其他人，例如费利克斯·尤苏波夫印刷以及与德米特里·帕夫洛维奇策划了谋杀拉斯普京的夫妇伊琳娜和费利克斯也设立了自己的时装店“Irfei”，甚至推出了带有类似香奈儿5号的香水。 还有其他一些较小规模的时装品牌，例如贝里家，印刷和他的妻子也拥有一家时装店。但不幸的是，所有这些时装品牌都遭到了1930年代经济衰退的打击。尽管大多数的女性在法国时装行业里都从事着苦力工作，无非就是坐在小旅馆里的缝纫机前做碎片工，但最终是女性在支持男人。因为除非男人在豪华的俄罗斯星级餐厅当服务员、MC、开车跑税、在雷诺的生产线上工作，否则大多数俄罗斯男子只能像乔治·奥威尔描写的那样，和他的朋友鲍里斯一起在巴黎的街头走来走去寻找工作，最终成为器皿洗涤工并卑微地生活下去。

there is a story about a factory worker from Russia who I don't know if this is a true story or a popular one wearing a tie on the factory line do we get a sense of how they were regarded by their co-workers by the people in Paris who were there at the time they arrived? very interesting in terms of the factory workers the men on the Renault line that it was said you could always tell the Russian workers because they dress smartly and wore a tie and this is where you see the kind of problems of integration rearing their head the French workers didn't like the Russians why? because the Russians turned up on time they were never late they did a job they took their pay without argument they did not go on strike because they come out of Russia panellists the last thing they were going to do is risk their jobs so because the Russians were such good reliable workers a lot of the French workers especially in place let the Renault actually looked on them as scabs because they wouldn't strike and they wouldn't be bowl she and fight for more money but one of the other problems which was I think the second part of the question I wanted to answer the real problem that does raise its head it's the difference between those Russians who integrated and assimilated and those who didn't and it's quite a stark contrast many of them of course the older generation they didn't learn French they lived in their little communities of fellow Russian emigres they went to their little Russian churches they cooked their Russian food and it was really the Russians who really made a go of it in emigration were fundamentally the ones who learnt French maybe even took French citizenship and assimilated and in general that didn't happen until the next generation until their children's generation but of course so because of that because they couldn't bear to give up their sense of Russianness and because many of them lived in this painful fading hope of being able to go back home to Russia one day life in emigration was pretty melancholy and really very hard for a lot of them

有一个关于俄罗斯工厂工人的故事，我不知道这是真实的还是大众化的。故事是关于一位工人在工厂生产线上系着领带，这让我们意识到他们在同事中和在巴黎当地的人们中的地位是如何看待的。对于工厂工人来说这很有趣，特别是在雷诺生产线上的男工人，据说你总能看出哪些是俄罗斯工人，因为他们穿得时髦，系着领带。这就是你会看到融入问题浮出水面的地方。法国工人不喜欢俄罗斯人，为什么？因为俄罗斯人总是按时到达工作岗位，从不迟到，认真做好工作，不争取更高的薪水，也不罢工。他们来自俄罗斯，最后的事情肯定不会是冒险丢了工作。因此，因为俄罗斯人是如此可靠的工人，很多法国工人，特别是在雷诺等地方，实际上把他们看做叛徒，因为他们不罢工，也不为更高的薪水而战斗。现实的问题在于俄罗斯人中那些整合和同化的人与那些没有整合和同化的人之间的差异。这是一个相当鲜明的对比。当然，许多老一辈人没有学会法语，他们住在与俄罗斯移民为伍的小社区里，去他们的俄罗斯教堂，烹饪俄罗斯食品。真正成功的俄罗斯移民基本上是那些学会了法语，甚至拿到了法国公民身份，并同化了的人，一般要到下一代甚至更久才会发生。当然，因为他们不能忍受放弃他们的俄罗斯身份，并且因为许多人生活在苦涩的希望当中，希望有一天能够回到俄罗斯，他们在移民生活中的生活相当忧郁，真的很艰难。

Picking up on that idea then, do we get a sense of how (and this is an impossibly broad question, I'm know) some of these people regarded the Russia that left behind? Did they work to restore it or to return there? How did they feel about that side of the story?

那么，继续探讨这个想法，我们是否能感受到一些人对留下的俄罗斯是如何看待的呢？他们是致力于恢复它还是返回那里？他们对这个故事的这一面有什么感受？（这是一个非常广泛的问题，我知道。）

Well, fundamentally their regard for the Russia they left was huge nostalgia for the rordinner (the motherland). This is an incredibly melancholy longing to go back to Russia, but of course, in emigration, living in their horrible, cheap, cold polkae rented rooms in Paris. They nursed this image of old mother Russia, pre-revolutionary Russia, the Russia they had grown up in. They nursed this image of it where, in fact, the new Soviet Russia was changing very, very dramatically, moving away and getting rid of all the old values. You know, the churches were, you know, under Stalin, of course, later churches were being blown up, religion was being banned, you know, everything. The czar had been murdered, and all the imperial family had been chased out or killed as well. The old Russia they'd known and loved was vanishing.

基本上，他们对离开的俄罗斯充满了对祖国的巨大怀旧情感。这是一种难以忍受的渴望回到俄罗斯的想法，但当然，在移民中，他们生活在巴黎那些恶劣、廉价、寒冷的波尔卡式租赁房间里。他们怀念老俄罗斯，沉溺于在那里长大的老俄罗斯，沉溺于那个在新苏联俄罗斯发生非常剧烈变化的俄罗斯。它慢慢地摆脱并丢弃了所有旧的价值观。你知道的，教堂在斯大林时期已经被摧毁，后来宗教也被禁止。沙皇被杀害，所有皇室成员也被驱逐或杀害。他们所熟知和热爱的老俄罗斯正在消失。

And so from the distance of Paris, there was this kind of pretty half-hearted attempt by some of the white Russians in exile to go on subversive missions, or to subvert the new Soviet state in Russia. And so many of them lived in this false hope that somehow that either communism would just sort of collapse and they'd all be able to go home. Or the even fainter hope that the whites in emigration would somehow be able to kind of get their act together, not exactly invade and reclaim Russia, but there were about 40,000 of the old white armies in immigration, there enough of them all over, scattered all over Europe, but there was this feint of hope that if the Soviet Union collapsed and failed, the white Russians could then move back in and reclaim Mother Russia, their Mother Russia, and restore not necessarily the monarchy, but restore the old world they'd once known. So, they all lived in this really rather tragic sense of false hope.

从巴黎的远方看来，有些流亡的白俄罗斯人曾试图进行颠覆行动，破坏俄罗斯新成立的苏维埃国家。他们中的许多人以为共产主义会崩溃，他们就能回家。又或者，流亡的白俄罗斯人有微弱的希望能够团结起来，不一定是入侵，而是通过他们在欧洲分散的40,000个白俄罗斯人，希望在苏联崩溃失败后，白俄罗斯人能够重回祖国，并恢复他们曾经知道的旧世界。所以，他们都生活在这种充满悲剧性的虚假希望中。

And were people in Soviet Russia concerned about this group of people over the water doing these plots and having these hopes of restoring what had gone before? Well, the trouble was, this is the other awful tragedy, they didn't really know. Because once the Soviets were installed, the awful thing for the vast numbers of Russians in Paris and elsewhere, they couldn't get news of home. So anyone coming who recently left Russia, people gather around, wanted to know all the news of Russia. You know, letters weren't coming through, you passers weren't coming through, the lines of communication were lost as the system, the Soviet system, became more and more draconian. And, equally on the other side, the people in Soviet Russia had no idea what was going on with their families in immigration, and so they were really cut off from each other, and it became really very, very sad. Families lost touch.

苏联的人们是否关心海外的这组人以及他们试图恢复过去的希望？而问题在于，另一个可怕的悲剧是：他们真的不知道。因为一旦苏维埃政府掌权，对于生活在巴黎和其他地方的大量俄罗斯人来说，最糟糕的事情就是他们无法得到来自家乡的新闻。因此，任何最近离开俄罗斯的人来到那里，人们都围着他问俄罗斯的所有消息。你知道，信件没有送达，传递者也没有送达，随着苏联系统变得越来越严苛，通讯渠道失去了。同样的，苏联境内的人们也不知道他们的移民家庭正在发生什么事情，他们之间真的被彼此隔离，这变得真的非常悲伤。家庭失去了联系。

Were there any Russians in Paris who supported the Bolsheviks? Well, I don't know about that. There were certainly Russians in Paris who were, you know, acting on behalf of the new Soviet state, who infiltrated the white Russian army ex-army groups as sort of spies and subversives and tried to undermine their plotting and planning to try and to stir up trouble in Soviet Russia. And what in fact actually happened, these were basically OGPU activists who infiltrated from Russia - the precursor of the KGB. In the '30s, there were two plots which were carried out to kidnap leading white Russian officers who were in, you know, the leading voices in the white Russians in exile. First of all, General Kuchopov, who was kidnapped and the objective had been to take him back to Moscow and torture him and interrogate him. But he never got that far, they, I think, they overdosed him anesthetically used to knock him out and killed him before they even got him on the boat. And then, in 1939, they did it again, they came back into Paris and kidnapped General Miller, and he was taken back to Moscow, probably to the Lyubianka and tortured and eventually killed a year later. So those were a couple of the key moments in the history of the sort of Soviet subversion of the white movement in Paris.

巴黎有支持布尔什维克的俄罗斯人吗？我不确定。但当时有些代表新苏维埃国家的俄罗斯人潜伏在白俄罗斯军队里，作为间谍和颠覆者，试图破坏他们的计划和阴谋，并煽动苏联内部的麻烦。实际上，这些人基本上是OGPU的活动家，是KGB的前身。在30年代，曾有两次计划绑架白俄罗斯流亡军队中领袖的行动。首先，基多波夫将军被绑架，目的是将他带回莫斯科拷问和审问。但他没能到达那里，他们在给他注射麻醉药时用过度，甚至还没让他上船就将他杀了。然后，在1939年，他们再次回到巴黎绑架了米勒将军，将他带回莫斯科，可能是到Lubyanka监狱中被拷问和最终杀死。这些是苏联在巴黎颠覆白俄罗斯运动的重要时刻。

For such the attempts by the whites in reverse to cause any trouble in Russia were pretty minimal. I think there were a couple of small bomb attacks and not much more. I mean, they just didn't have the power or the connections to infiltrate this great monolithic new Soviet state.

对于白人反向试图在俄罗斯引起麻烦的尝试，实际上相当有限。我记得只有几次小型的炸弹袭击事件，没有更多的行动。我的意思是，他们没有能力或关系渗透这个庞大的新苏维埃国家。

Are there any other case studies or individual stories that highlight themes we've not yet discussed that you'd like to talk about particularly?

是否有其他案例研究或个人故事可以突显出我们尚未讨论的主题，你特别想讨论的？

The only other thing I would say really, which is the most poignant part of the story, I guess, is that some Russians in the end were so desperate to go back to Russia that they did go back, with varying consequences.

我想说的另外一件事，可能是故事中最感人的部分，就是一些俄罗斯人最终变得非常渴望回到俄罗斯，他们确实回去了，但结果却不尽相同。

I suppose the best example and the saddest example is the great poet Marina Cittiava, who suffered dreadfully in exile. She'd been in Paris for some time, but before that, she'd been in Prague, everywhere she went.

我想最好的例子，也是最令人悲伤的例子，是伟大诗人Marina Cittiava，她在流亡中受了巨大的痛苦。她曾在巴黎待过一段时间，但在那之前，她去过布拉格，无论她走到哪里。

She couldn't get work she's scripted and scraped earning an absolute bit and writing little bits here and having a poem there published and the odd bit of a short essay or something and in the end against her better judgment she was persuaded to go back to Soviet Russia in the war and was stranded in central Asia because of the war she was sort of vacuated out there couldn't get any work was ended up washing dishes some ghastly impoverished hovel of a house and hanged herself other writers went back you know for their 30 pieces of silver.

她不能找到自己创作的工作，只能靠写一些短文、发表一些诗歌和零散的小作品来挣钱，最后不得不违背自己的判断回到苏联参加战争，在中亚滞留了下来，无法找到任何工作，最终在一个可怕的贫穷小屋里洗碗，最终选择了自杀。其他作家回去了为了他们的金钱利益。

Alexis Tolstoy one of the first writers to come out who went to Berlin and that didn't work for him so he came to Paris and was pretty disgruntled he couldn't make a living in Paris either went back to Russia to the line became a big sort of aparachic writer in the Soviet Union one prizes left right in center he did fine you know if you went back to the line you could be okay but others just went back to die really the only one who made a success of it was a woman called or dietsava I think it was she went back and was treated like a hero when she finally returned from Paris in the 80s and she was celebrated but as such it didn't work to go back the Russia they went back to was not the Russia they had left.

阿历克西斯·托尔斯泰是最早前往柏林的作家之一，但那里的状况并不适合他，于是他来到了巴黎，但在巴黎谋生也很不顺利。后来，他回到了俄罗斯，成为了苏联的一名高级官员，并赢得了左右各种奖项。实际上，如果你回到了乡下，也许会度过不错的生活，但其他人却回去一命呜呼。唯一一个成功的例子是一位名叫奥尔迪扎瓦的女性，她回国后被视为英雄，享受了荣誉。但总的来说，返回俄罗斯并没有奏效，因为他们回去的俄罗斯并非离开时的俄罗斯。

You wrote this book during 2020 and obviously events in Russia since have taken a turn that I don't think anyone could have necessarily expected the extent of it.

您在2020年写了这本书，显然自那时以来，俄罗斯的事件发展出乎意料，我认为没有人能够预料到其中的程度。

Do you think this story has any lessons for us with the Russia of the 21st century? Well, I the thing that struck me most is how very that I felt actually very interesting because I have friends in Russia you know intellectual friends artistic creative people and they have told me that all the same exactly the same kind of people are leaving have left after the war broke out that left in around 1919 the intellectuals the educated glasses and now it's of course the tech was the IT people the creative people they have I have friends who were working in Russia who are now in Lubljana who are in Tel Aviv backing Zagreb and went to Armenia oh another one's in Baku that there's this same dispersal of intellectuals and talent and the professional classes that's been prompted by the recent war as was as happened then and it's terribly sad.

你认为这个故事对于我们21世纪的俄罗斯有什么教训吗？嗯，我最感动的是我感到的十分之巨大，非常有趣，因为我有在俄罗斯的朋友，他们是知识分子、艺术创作人员，他们告诉我，在战争爆发后，仍有完全相同的人离开了，就像1919年左右离开的那些受过教育的知识分子一样，现在当然是技术人员、IT人员、创意人员，我有朋友曾在俄罗斯工作，现在在卢布尔雅那、特拉维夫、扎格列布和亚美尼亚，还有一个在巴库，因最近的战争而引起的知识分子、人才和专业阶层的同样分散，这与当时发生的情况一样，非常令人悲伤。

There is quite an obvious parallel with this kind of brain drain because the Russia the Russians in 1920 and just before in just you know in that Exodus that went on after the revolution they lost the cream of the intelligence here of the educated classes and the same thing in a way has happened now.

这种人才流失现象与1920年俄罗斯的情况非常相似。在俄国革命之前和之后，俄罗斯人经历了一次大规模的人口离散，其中失去了教育精英。同样的事情现在也在发生着。

That was Helen Rappaport her book after the Romanov's Russian exiles in Paris between the wars is out now published by a scribe and if you're intrigued to find out more about Zarist Russia check out the documentary Empire of the Zars Romanov Russia with Lucy Wersley which is available now on BBC iPlayer.

海伦·拉帕波特刚刚出版了她的新书，内容讲述沙俄沙皇家族被流放至巴黎之后的生活，现已由一家出版社发行。如果你对沙皇俄国时期感到好奇，可以观看BBC iPlayer上现有的纪录片《沙皇帝国的罗曼诺夫家族》，由卢西·沃斯利主持。

Thanks for listening to the history extra podcast this podcast was produced by Brittany Colley.

感谢收听历史附加播客，本播客由布兰迪·科利制作。