What DeSantis did at Guantánamo Bay
发布时间 2023-04-17 21:00:25 来源
My name is Ahmed Abdel Aziz. I was transferred to the island Guantanamo Bay on October 27, 2002. Ahmed Abdel Aziz was a detainee for 13 years at Guantanamo Bay, one of the most controversial prisons ever created. The US set up the prison in the wake of 9-11 to hold terrorists, but we now know that many of the people held there were never charged, and prisoners have alleged they suffered torture and human rights abuses. Independent groups, including the UN Commission on Human Rights, have denounced their treatment. Ahmed arrived soon after the prison opened, when the prison was using highly controversial interrogation tactics and force-feeding inmates who were on a hunger strike.
我叫阿赫迈德·阿卜杜勒·阿齐兹。我被转移到关塔那摩湾岛上是在2002年10月27日。阿赫迈德·阿卜杜勒·阿齐兹在关塔那摩湾岛上被关押了13年，这是有史以来最具争议的监狱之一。美国在911事件后设立了这个监狱，以拘留恐怖分子，但我们现在知道，许多被关押的人从未被起诉，囚犯声称他们遭受了酷刑和侵犯人权的待遇。独立团体，包括联合国人权委员会，已经谴责了他们的待遇。阿赫迈德在监狱开设不久后到达，当时监狱正在使用非常有争议的审讯策略，并给正在进行绝食抗议的囚犯进行强制喂养。
They were like doing the first feeding, and it wasn't just first feeding. They put all detainee on punishment for 90 days. You know, you have nothing. They will strip everything you have. Everything you cannot imagine you have, no blanket, no sheet, no towers, no toothbrush, nothing, no soap, even. And this guy was working there, and he was one of these guys coming in them every day. That guy he's talking about, who was working at Guantanamo Bay, was none other than Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, the guy who is widely expected to announce he's running for president in 2024. DeSantis started working in the prison in 2006, and even though the Florida governor seems to be all over the news these days, very little is known about the time he spent working at Guantanamo.
他们就像在进行第一次喂食一样，而且不只是第一次喂食。他们把所有被拘留者都关押了90天。你知道，你什么都没有了。他们会剥夺你所有的东西。你无法想象你拥有的所有东西都没有了，没有毯子，没有床单，没有毛巾，没有牙刷，什么都没有，甚至没有肥皂。而这个人正在那里工作，他是那些每天进去的人之一。那个人在关塔那摩湾工作，就是即将在2024年竞选总统的佛罗里达州州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯。德桑蒂斯从2006年开始在监狱工作，尽管这位佛罗里达州州长最近似乎在新闻中随处可见，但人们对他在关塔那摩摆脱的那段时间了解甚少。
My colleague Michael Kranish has been digging into this, trying to learn everything he can about DeSantis' time there. I saw a campaign ad that he ran when he first ran for governor in 2018, and then that ad showed him in his Navy whites, and the narrator said he, quote, dealt with terrorists like Guantanamo Bay. Ron DeSantis, Iraq war veteran, Jag officer, who dealt with terrorists in Guantanamo Bay. And I thought that was interesting. And I think a lot of people probably weren't aware of that, and when I looked for backup on that, I saw a couple of stories, but it really didn't tell me much, and it really made me wonder, well, what exactly did he do at Guantanamo Bay? What happened at the time he was there, then it turned out that he was there during a very extraordinary year, really the most violent year in the history of Guantanamo Bay. People spoke with dozens of other people who were at the prison at the same time DeSantis was. To try to understand exactly what the governor did there, and how this violent year might have shaped his views.
我的同事迈克尔·克拉尼什一直在深入研究这个问题，试图了解德桑蒂斯在那里的经历。我看了他在2018年竞选州长时发布的一则广告，广告里展示了他穿着海军制服，广告词称他处理像关塔那摩湾一样的恐怖主义分子。罗恩·德桑蒂斯是一位伊拉克战争退伍军人，曾在关塔那摩湾处理恐怖分子。我觉得这很有趣，很多人可能不知道这一点。当我想找到相关信息时，看到了一些报道，但并没有很多内容，这让我想知道，德桑蒂斯究竟在关塔那摩湾做了什么？在他在那里的那段时间里发生了什么？后来证实，他在一个非常特殊的年份到那里，那一年是关塔那摩湾历史上最暴力的一年。我与那个时期也在那个监狱里的其他数十个人交谈，试图了解州长当时具体做了什么，以及这个暴力的一年是如何影响了他的观点的。
We are very, very aware about what we saw, what we remember. Our memories are vivid, most of them, the memories are extremely vivid. We can leave them like reality. Most of our dreams still when we sleep, it's inside the camp. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Arjun Sang, I'm your guest host today. It's Monday, April 17th. Today, what we know about the time Ron DeSantis spent working at the Infamous Guantanamo Bay Prison. Michael, can you remind us like what exactly is Guantanamo Bay? Why was it a prison in the first place?
我们非常非常清楚我们看到了什么，我们记得什么。我们的记忆非常生动，大部分都非常生动。我们可以把它们当成现实。我们大部分的梦都是在睡觉时，发生在营地里。这里是《华盛顿邮报》的新闻室。我是Arjun Sang，今天是4月17日星期一，我是你们的嘉宾主持人。今天我们了解一下Ron DeSantis在臭名昭著的关塔那摩监狱工作时的情况。Michael，你能提醒我们一下关塔那摩究竟是什么，为什么会成为一个监狱吗？
After the attacks of September 11th in 2001, the George W. Bush administration decided that they wanted to bring what they called, quote, enemy combatants, not to the US to face charges. They cited various reasons to put them on a US naval base that's on the island nation of Cuba. Prison was built there. They started bringing these individuals off the battlefield in Afghanistan. There were hundreds that were eventually brought over, nearly 800 in total over the years.
在2001年9月11日的袭击事件后，乔治W.布什政府决定要把他们所谓的"敌方战斗人员"带到古巴的美国海军基地，而不是将他们带回美国受审。他们提出了各种理由来在那里建造监狱。这些人被从阿富汗战场上带来。最终带来了成百上千的人，这些人在多年后共计近800人。
The way it was portrayed at the time, Donald Rumsfeld, then the Defense Secretary said these were the worst of the worst, it was too dangerous to bring them over to the US. These men are extremely dangerous, particularly when being moved, such as loading or unloading. They weren't given the regular legal rights. They weren't given the kind of things that you would expect if you walked into a court when you were arrested. They've not been given the rights that you would be accorded if you were a US citizen and a court of law. There was a lot of controversy and there were international groups that were saying that these people who were being held there were subjected to torture. They had started forced feeding, which the UN Commission on Human Rights said was tantamount to torture, violated various international conventions. We now know most of the people who were brought over, they were never charged, most were released.
当时，国防部长唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德以这种方式描述这些人是最坏的人，将他们带到美国太危险了。这些人非常危险，特别是在运输过程中，例如装载或卸载。他们没有被赋予常规的法律权利。如果您被警方逮捕，然后步入法庭，您所期望的那些事情都不会给予他们。他们没有被授予作为美国公民在法庭上应享有的权利。有很多争议，国际组织声称那些被拘留的人遭受了酷刑。他们已经开始强制喂养，联合国人权委员会称这相当于酷刑，违反了各种国际公约。我们现在知道被带来的大多数人从未被指控，大多数人被释放了。
To this day, Guantanamo remains open, although most of the cells have been emptied. It remains a very controversial period in American history that these individuals were brought over.
直到今天，关塔那摩仍然开放，尽管大多数牢房已经被清空。这是美国历史上一个备受争议的时期，因为这些人被带过来。
Many of them say they were simply picked up because it was a way for somebody on the battlefield to make a few thousand dollars and convince US officials, hey, that person's a terrorist and pay me a bounty. Sure, there are definitely some who are there where there seems to be clear evidence or they've confessed to various things. The Mastermind of Line 11 to this day remains a Guantanamo. For many others, they never showed them brought over there. They had nothing to do with what was going on in Afghanistan or played some very minor role and didn't deserve to be picked up and were just brought over because some warlord wanted to make five thousand dollars in a bounty or whatever it was.
许多人说他们只是被捡起来了，因为那是战场上某人赚几千美元并说服美国官员，“嘿，那个人是恐怖分子，给我赏金”的方式。当然，肯定有一些人是有明确证据或已经承认了各种事情。线路11的头目直至今日仍在关塔那摩。对于许多其他人来说，他们被带到那里时从未向他们展示证据。他们与阿富汗正在发生的事情毫无关系，或者扮演了一些非常次要的角色，没有理由被捡起来，只是因为一些军阀想要在赏金中赚五千美元或其他什么。
It was very controversial at the time that it opened and it's really been even more controversial as time has gone on and very few of them were actually charged.
当它开放时，它引起了很大争议，随着时间的推移，它变得更加争议，实际上很少有人被控告。
And a young Ron DeSantis says that he wants to work there. Can you explain that path to me a little bit more, Michael?
一个年轻的Ron DeSantis说他想在那里工作。迈克尔，你能更详细地解释一下这条路吗？
How does he go from law student to eventual lawyer at Guantanamo? Well, Ron DeSantis, after 9-11, he went to Harvard Law and he decided rather than join a fancy law firm where he could have made an awful lot of money to be sure. Decided he wanted to become a member of the Judge Advocate General's Corps, which is a Navy Corps of officers who are lawyers. And at 27 years old, he goes down and he joins that Corps and is sent to Guantanamo. He was based at a naval base in Jacksonville, Florida.
他是如何从法学生成为关塔那摩的律师的呢？Ron DeSantis在9/11事件后去了哈佛法学院，并决定不加入可以赚很多钱的大型律师事务所。相反，他决定成为海军陆战队法官总局的一员，这是一个由军官组成的律师团队。在27岁时，他加入了该团队并被派往关塔那摩。他的基地位于佛罗里达州杰克逊维尔的一个海军基地。
And he sent down there over a period of about a year or more for several weeks at a time back and forth. And he has said that initially he thought that he would be able to prosecute these individuals at Guantanamo. It didn't work out that way because there were a lot of legal challenge to the military commission process. So we actually didn't get to be a prosecutor and some people had assumed that he was. And that's just not the case. Nor did he work as a defense attorney. He ended up working as a legal advisor to that Corps down there. And that advice involved essentially how you were treating detainees. He would meet with detainee lawyers. He would meet with detainees. And his job was in part to make sure that their complaints, their concerns were conveyed up the stream.
他在那里待了大约一年多，每次来回几个星期，他说最初认为能够在关塔那摩起诉这些人，但是由于军事委员会过程中存在很多法律挑战，事实并非如此。因此，他实际上并没有成为一个检察官，有些人也曾经认为他是，但情况并非如此。他也没有担任辩护律师的工作。他最终成为那个队的法律顾问，他的工作涉及如何对待被拘留者。他会与被拘留者的律师会面，会见被拘留者。他的工作部分是确保他们的投诉、关注向上游传达。
So Michael, what was Guantanamo Bay like when Ron DeSantis showed up in 2006? Well, the conditions had deteriorated and there were a lot of detainees who were on hunger strikes. And this had started. There was a lot of concern by human rights groups that the hunger strikes were justified, that conditions were terrible there and that the detainees not having been charged were being mistreated. So as DeSantis arrived, those hunger strikes were escalating. And he says that he was asked by commanding officer, how do we deal with this?
迈克尔，当罗恩·德桑蒂斯在2006年出现时，关塔那摩湾是什么样子？好的，那时候情况已经恶化了，有很多囚犯在进行绝食抗议。这一切始于某些事件。人权组织很担心这些绝食抗议是有道理的，因为那里的条件实在太糟糕了，而那些未被控告的囚犯也遭受了不公正待遇。所以当德桑蒂斯到达时，这些绝食抗议正在升级。他表示，被指挥官问到了如何应对这一局面。
And DeSantis said in a 2018 interview with a local television station in Florida, the only time I can really see him talking in detail about this, he said, hey, you can actually force feed. So everything at that time was legal in nature one way or another. So the commander wants to know, well, how do I combat this? So one of the jobs of the legal advisor would be like, hey, you actually can force feed. Here's what you can do. Here's kind of the rules of that. You also had a lot of detainees.
德桑蒂斯在2018年接受佛罗里达本地电视台的采访中说过这样一句话，这是他唯一一次详细讨论此事的发言，他说：“嘿，你实际上可以强制喂养。”所以当时所有行为在某种程度上都是合法的。所以指挥官想知道，我该怎么对抗这种情况？这时，法律顾问的一个职责就是：嘿，你实际上可以强制喂养。这是你可以做的。这是这个规则。你也有很多囚犯。
And detainees say the way it was done was they were strapped to a chair, immovable. They had these hoses inserted up their nose where protein-shaped mixtures were sent up their nasal cavity into their stomach in a process they'd described as absolutely brutal. So DeSantis by his own account, he said, hey, you can do this. Here's how you can do it. And the federal government always denied that this was torture. They'd never agreed with those critics who said that it was.
囚犯说做法是他们被捆绑在椅子上，无法移动。他们插入鼻子的管子中注入蛋白质混合物，然后经过鼻腔进入胃部，这个过程被他们称为非常残酷。所以DeSantis据他自己说，他说：“嘿，你可以这么做。这是如何做到的。”联邦政府一直否认这是酷刑。他们从来没有同意那些批评者所说的。
There were many efforts by detainees lawyers to stop that practice, but it was ongoing. So it was a very, very contentious time. As people running the camp, we're trying to get information that they hoped would prevent another terror attack. And the many detainees there were being questioned in a way that they felt, you know, went way too far. And they were held in conditions that they considered inhumane, and they were being force-fed. So it was a very explosive situation.
被拘留者的律师尽力阻止这种做法，但它仍在继续。所以那是一个非常非常争议的时期。作为管理营地的人，我们试图获取信息，希望能够防止另一次恐怖袭击。而许多被拘留者被以他们认为过分的方式审问，他们在不人道的条件下被拘留，并被强制喂养。因此，这是一种非常爆炸性的局势。
And the newspapers, the television, was filled with stories about the conditions at Guantanamo, the fairness or unfairness of how people were being held there. And it's a central role in the war on terror and whether that was justified and whether the people there really had anything to do with it and whether this system could continue.
报纸、电视上充满了关于关塔那摩收容所情况公平性或不公平性的报道，这在反恐战争中扮演着重要角色，人们质疑这是否合理，那里的人是否确实涉及反恐战争，以及这个系统是否能够继续下去。
Well, and so did you get a chance to talk to anybody who had seen or been around this time? I'm just so curious, given everything you've laid out, like what was life like in Guantanamo back then?
那么，你有没有机会和任何曾经看过或在那个时候附近的人谈话？考虑到你提到的所有情况，我真的很好奇，当时在关塔那摩的生活是什么样子的？
Very interestingly. I spent a lot of time. I probably talked to 40 or 50 people who were down in Guantanamo during that time. I was able to talk to the commanding officer, Patrick Moncarte, the captain McCarthy, talked to length about how he gave a lot of responsibility to Rhonda Santas, really wasn't pressed with his background at Harvard Law, talked to the prison warden, talked to other lawyers who had met with Santas and quite interestingly, was able to talk to two former detainees.
非常有趣。我花了很多时间。我大概和40到50个在关塔那摩的人谈过话。我跟指挥官帕特里克·蒙卡特、上尉麦卡锡进行了长时间的交谈，谈到了他是如何赋予朗达·桑塔斯很多责任的，他并没有太在意她在哈佛法学院的背景。我跟监狱典狱长交谈过，还跟其他律师交谈过，他们曾经见过桑塔斯并给出了很有趣的看法。另外，我还有幸跟两名前囚犯交谈过。
And these two were particularly interesting because they had spoken fluent English even at that time, many more do now. So they were quite aware that if you could talk to a Jag officer like Santas, even they didn't know Santas' name, for security reasons, the Jags did not have the name tags when they went to visit the prison. But they later realized that the person that they remember very well was Rhonda Santas. So I interviewed two of these individuals.
这两位特别有趣，因为即使在那个时候，他们就会说流利的英语。现在更多人会说了。因此，他们非常清楚，如果你能像和Santas军官交谈一样与Jag军官交谈，即使他们不知道Santas的名字，出于安全考虑，Jags去拜访监狱时没有名牌。但他们后来意识到，他们非常清楚记得的人是Rhonda Santas。所以我采访了这两个人。
And one, Ahmed Abdul Aziz. He remembers thinking like if we want to tell the commanders here how bad things are, how bad conditions are, the way to do that was through someone like the person he now recognizes that to Santas. So he told me that he told Santas, you've got to tell people we don't know our trial, we don't know our charges. And you really need to tell people what's going on here. And he said that to Santas had assured him that that would happen.
还有一个人，叫 Ahmed Abdul Aziz。他记得当时想到，如果我们想告诉这里的指挥官情况有多么糟糕，应该通过像 Santas 这样的人来传达。于是他告诉我，他告诉了 Santas，你必须告诉人们，我们不知道我们的审判，我们也不知道我们被指控犯了什么罪。你真的需要告诉人们这里到底发生了什么。他说 Santas 确信这将会发生。
He was always smiling like the others, some of some time they would say, sure, sure, we will bring it up to the higher ups. He said that and the other people said that. Sometimes they said fine, that's why we are here. But eventually, the stutainee told me that conditions got worse, not better. We were people where in extremely harsh conditions, you know, unbearable, unbearable, you cannot imagine. You are, or they will turn off the AC until you're almost suffocated of no air, or they will turn AC to.
他总是像其他人一样面带微笑，有时他们会说“当然，当然，我们会向上级反映”。他这样说，其他人也这样说。有时他们说：“好的，这就是我们在这里的原因。”但最终，实习生告诉我情况变得更糟，而不是更好。我们处在极其恶劣的条件下，你知道，难以忍受，难以想象。你要么会被关掉空调，几乎无法呼吸空气，要么就会开得拼命。
And then there was a second detainee, monster Adafi. I mean, he's really interesting because he's written with a co-author quite a documented memoir of his time at Guantanamo, which he called Don't Forget Us Here, in which he talks a great length about being force-fed. And he describes the process in great detail and how excruciatingly painful it was for him. We're like tied to first meeting at chair, and they brought like piles of insure, medical teams, a lot of guards, and everyone just read it, but like screaming, dragging us. So and they start really like feeding us, like just fricking to you, the guards, yes, guard even puts the tooth or nose is bleeding.
然后又出现了第二个被拘留者，叫做怪物阿达菲。我的意思是，他非常有趣，因为他和合作者写了一本名为《别忘了我们在这里》的书，详细记录了他在关塔那摩的经历，其中他长篇大论地谈到了被强制喂食的情况。他非常详细地描述了整个过程和对他的极度痛苦。我们被绑在椅子上，他们带来了大量的保险，医疗队，很多警卫，每个人都在看，但又大喊大叫，将我们推到那里。然后他们开始真的喂我们，就像对待家禽一样，警卫甚至会放牙齿或鼻子流血。
And according to Adafi, he says that he would sometimes try to reject what he was being given. He was strapped into a chair when he was force-fed up through his nose. And the only way to basically make his objections known was to spit out what he was being given. Oh, my God. And he said he did that. And he said, in a conversation, he spit out and it was to Santa's across from where he's being force-fed. And he says some of that landed on to Santa's.
根据Adafi说，他有时会试图拒绝他被给予的东西。当他被迫通过鼻子喂食时，他被绑在椅子上。基本上让他的反对意见知道的唯一方法就是吐出他所吃的东西。哦，我的天啊。他说他做到了。在一次谈话中，他吐出来的东西落在了他被喂食的对面的Santa身上。他说一部分也掉在了Santa身上。
Now I asked to Santa specifically through written questions, do you recall this happening? His office did not respond, a request for comment. Since the story has been published, you know, I've heard nothing back from their office to say that this didn't happen. And Adafi has, you know, very strongly stood, you know, by this story. So there you have two detainees and I did a lot of other research where you see that the job of someone like to Santa's as a jag was in fact to advise on force-feeding was to see and meet detainees and their lawyers.
现在我通过书面问题明确地问圣诞老人，您是否记得这件事？他的办公室没有回复我的询问。自从这个故事发表以来，我没有得到来自他们办公室的任何回应，以便说明这件事没有发生。而Adafi则非常坚定地支持这个故事。因此，您可以看到两名被拘留者和我进行了很多其他的调查，发现像圣诞老人这样的Jag工作的确是为了建议强制喂养，以及会见被拘留者和他们的律师。
So a lot of that fits together. That doesn't mean that you can prove that what these two detainees said is what happened. But the timing fits. They were certainly there during that time period. And it's their version of events. It's what they say, you know, in these on the records with me for this story.
这些信息大多数都是相互印证的。这并不意味着你可以证明这两个被拘留者所说的就是发生的事情。但是时间上是匹配的。他们肯定是在那段时间内待在那里。而且这是他们的事件版本。这是他们与我这个故事的记录上所说的话。
And outside of the force feedings were there ever other incidents or situations that Dessantis had found himself in that really stood out to you, Michael? Yes, absolutely. The most violent act that's ever occurred in the history of Guantanamo occurred after these force feedings were vatuted up. There were three detainees and in June 2006, all three were found dead.
迪桑蒂斯在被强制喂食之外，还有其他让你印象深刻的事件或情况吗，迈克尔？有的，绝对有。在这些强制喂食之后，关塔那摩历史上发生的最暴力事件就发生了。在2006年6月，三名囚犯被发现死亡。
One a little bit later in a medical facility, but all three essentially found dead. And the prison authorities almost immediately said these were simultaneous suicides and the three were found dead by hanging, they hang themselves. And Dessantis, according to a supervising officer Captain Patrick McCarthy, McCarthy told me which he had not previously said and I hadn't seen reported. He said that he eventually called in Dessantis to help with the investigation as to what happened with these three deaths. You can only imagine what a huge story this was at the time.
有一天，三个人在监狱里死亡，稍晚一名医务人员在医院里去世。监狱管理部门几乎立即宣称这是三人同时自杀，他们吊死了自己。根据监管官员帕特里克·麦卡锡上尉所说，他告诉我一些之前没有被报道的事情。他说，最终他请来了德桑蒂斯帮助调查这三人的死亡原因。当时这个消息传开后，你能想象到这是一个多么大的新闻。
This came to the attention of the White House, the Defense Department. There were immense numbers of stories about it. There were various human rights groups who seriously questioned whether these really were suicides.
这件事引起了白宫和国防部的关注，有大量的报道。还有一些人权组织严肃地质疑这些是否真的是自杀。
Dessantis himself later said in this local television interview that there were three suicides by hunger strikes, but that's not what the federal government initially eventually concluded.
Dessantis本人后来在这个当地电视采访中说，有三个人因绝食自杀，但这并不是联邦政府最初最终得出的结论。
In fact, they concluded they were simultaneously hanging themselves. So Dessantis appears to have mistreated what actually happened.
事实上，他们得出了结论，他们同时自我残害。因此，德桑蒂斯似乎对事实发生了误解。
So his job, according to McCarthy, later was to go in and in some way deal with evidence regarding this. We don't know all the details.
所以，根据麦卡锡的说法，他的工作后来是进去以某种方式处理与此相关的证据。我们不知道所有的细节。
There's the Naval Criminal Investigative Service that went in. They did an investigation. So I had a number of questions about this. I went back and interviewed a lot of people who were involved in that investigation.
有海军刑事调查局进去了。他们进行了一次调查。所以我对此有许多问题。我回去采访了许多参与那次调查的人。
To report, unfortunately, redacts the names of the Jag officers who were involved. So you can't tell whether it says that Dessantis was, but it does say that people from his base were sent down to Guantanamo to collect information.
很不幸，报告中删去了参与其中的Jag官员的姓名。所以你无法确定报告是否指出了Dessantis是否涉及此事，但是报告确实说有人从他所在的基地被派往关塔那摩收集信息。
So it all sort of fits with what Dessantis is committing officer told me about that. And then it has to be noted here that according to the prison warden that I interviewed, Michael Bumgardner, he said all three were slated to soon be released.
所以，德桑蒂斯的承诺官员告诉我这一切都很符合情况。还要注意的是，根据我采访的监狱看守长迈克尔·班加德纳的说法，这三个人都将很快被释放。
Is that correct all three were going to be released? We had not informed him of that yet, but yeah, as best as members search, all three were slated to go.
那三人都要被释放了，是这样吗？我们还没有通知他，但是是的，根据成员的搜索结果，三人都计划要被释放。
There really is quite a shocking fact to know that according to government officials, they were very soon slated to be released from Guantanamo. So their families, some of them filed suits against the government saying that these weren't suicides, that the worst deaths as a result of torture or interrogation went too far.
真的有一个非常令人震惊的事情要知道，根据政府官员的说法，他们很快就将被释放出古巴关塔那摩监狱。因此，他们的家人中的一些人向政府提起诉讼，声称这些不是自杀，而是因酷刑或审讯过度而导致最严重的死亡。
There is a guard who was at the camp who wrote a book called Murder at Camp Delta, which alleged that they weren't suicides. They were interrogations that went too far.
有一个在营地里的警卫写了一本叫《Delta营的谋杀案》的书。他声称那些人不是自杀，而是被审讯过度了。
So I found in my reporting, there are still a lot of questions about how those three died. And so of course, as a reporter looking into Dessantis's role during this year that he was at Guantanamo, the fact that his commanding officer says he was involved in someone in investigation, I'd love to know a little bit more, but I do think that it's open to question.
我在采访中发现，对于那三个人是如何死亡还有许多疑问。因此，作为一名调查德桑蒂斯在关塔那摩期间的工作的记者，他的指挥官说他参与了某个调查，我想要了解更多，但我认为这仍然存在疑问。
So like Dessantis isn't someone who's sitting from me outside looking at memos or transcripts. He's inside the prison and he's got an active role.
所以，Dessantis并不是一个坐在外面看备忘录或记录的人。他在监狱内部，担任着积极的角色。
So what does Dessantis say about this time now? Does he ever talk about being at Guantanamo? I think he's been asked a little bit. Dessantis wrote a book recently that's called The Courage to Be Free.
那么，Dessantis现在对此有什么想法？他曾经谈论过在关塔那摩的经历吗？我想他被问过一点点了。最近，Dessantis写了一本名为《勇气与自由》的书。
And I was anxiously awaiting that book before the story was finished to see if he would talk in more detail. And he really skimmed over this.
我当时非常期待那本书，急切地想知道他是否会更详细地谈论故事，但他其实只是轻描淡写地提到了这个部分。
He essentially said he went down there briefly, volunteered for duty down there. And that was it. He didn't go into very much at all.
他基本上说他只是短暂地去了那里，为那里的任务自愿服务。就是这样。他没有详细说明。
So for whatever reason, he skimmed over it. It seems like it'd be a major chapter of your life being an officer, you know, off and on over the course of more than a year at Guantanamo.
所以出于任何原因，他匆匆浏览了它。你知道的，作为一名军官，在关塔那摩待了一年多，这似乎是你人生的重要章节。
But you know, he really dispensened it and passed on in a few sentences in that book. So like I said, if you're once a president, there would be certainly many more questions and we'll see if he does interviews where he says more about this.
但是你知道，他在那本书中只用了几句话就概括了它并且不再多谈。所以像我之前说的，如果你曾经担任过总统，肯定会有更多问题，我们会看到他是否会接受采访并谈更多关于此事的内容。
After the break, what Dessantis thinks about the debate over keeping Guantanamo open? And what it would mean for the prison and the remaining inmates if he has the final say is president. We'll be right back.
休息之后，Dessantis对于保持关塔那摩监狱开放的辩论有何看法？如果他作为总统拥有最终决定权，则对于监狱和剩余囚犯意味着什么？我们马上回来。
Okay. So Dessantis doesn't necessarily speak about it a lot. But Guantanamo does stay in the news.
好滴。所以Dessantis不一定会经常谈论这件事， 但关塔那摩还是经常被报道。
I mean during the Obama administration, when he himself is in Congress, there's all these discussions that Guantanamo should be closed, whether it's going to try and close it.
我的意思是，在奥巴马政府时期，当他自己还在国会时，就有很多讨论认为关塔那摩监狱应该关闭，不管是试图关闭它还是怎样。
Did he ever at least weigh in on those kinds of conversations? Yes. So Dessantis, after serving on Guantanamo, he then served in Iraq, briefly worked for a law firm, and then he was elected to Congress in 2012.
他是否曾至少就那些类型的谈话发表过意见？是的。所以，德桑蒂斯在参加关塔那摩的服务之后，曾在伊拉克服役，短暂地为律师事务所工作，然后在2012年当选为国会议员。
He became a big defender of keeping Guantanamo open. There were efforts by members of both parties to close Guantanamo. The number of people there was dwindling.
他成为了维持关塔那摩监狱开放的大力支持者。两党成员都努力想要关闭关塔那摩监狱。那里关押的人数正在减少。
Most people weren't charged, many were released. As a result, he chaired a subcommittee hearing in 2016, where he basically said, no, we can't close Guantanamo.
大多数人没有被起诉，许多人被释放了。因此，他在2016年主持了一个小组委员会听证会，在那里他基本上说，不，我们不能关闭关塔那摩监狱。
I'm paraphrasing here. But he fought very strongly to keep it open. He's been to do that. So he has been a lead proponent of keeping it open.
我在这里转述一下。但他非常强烈地反对关闭它。他一直在为此而奋斗。所以他是保持其开放的主要支持者。
In fact, I found that he was interviewed on Fox News, where the interviewer said, why should you keep open Guantanamo? It cost millions of dollars per prisoner per year to run that place where you could put them much more cheaply at a very secure prison called the Supermax in Colorado.
实际上，我发现他在福克斯新闻受访时，面试官问他：为什么要保持关塔那摩的开放呢？在那里，每个囚犯每年都要花费数百万美元来运营，而你可以将他们更便宜地放在科罗拉多的超级最高安全监狱。
And DeSantis responded, well, there's several reasons you shouldn't do that. And he said, the Supermax, he said, you have common criminals there. Supermax has common criminals.
德桑提斯回应道，不要这样做有许多原因。他说，超级监狱里有普通罪犯。超级监狱里的罪犯是普通的。
I know we have prosecuted terrorists who've made it to our shores before. But it's in apples and oranges comparison. That is a military operation that's going on there. It is not a civilian justice system.
我知道我们以前曾经起诉过登上我们国土的恐怖分子。但是这是苹果与橙子的比较。那是一场军事行动，而不是一个民事司法系统。
And part of the reason it cost a lot is because they get three special halal meals a day. They get round the clock, medical care. They get the carons when they want it. So they are treated far better than they would be treated almost anywhere else. And that's costly.
其中一部分原因是它花费很多，是因为他们每天都能得到三顿特别的清真餐。他们能获得全天候医疗护理。他们想要什么时可以得到照顾。所以他们得到的待遇远远优于其他几乎任何地方。这是昂贵的。
I would like to see us trim back on that for sure. I interviewed the former warden of that Supermax prison. And he said it's not for common criminals. It was built, in fact, for the most difficult prisoners.
我想我们肯定应该减少那方面的开支。我采访了那所超级最高安全监狱的前监狱长。他说那不是给普通罪犯设计的，事实上它是为最困难的囚犯而建造的。
And if there are, for example, the 1993 World Trade Center bombers there, the Unibombers there. So that's been contested at the statement about that. But nonetheless, you know, he as far as we know is still talking about keeping it open. When he's there in Congress, he's a defender of the prison.
如果有例如1993年世界贸易中心爆炸案和联合炸弹手这样的人被关在那里，这个说法就存在争议。但是无论如何，据我们所知，他仍在谈论保持它的开放性。当他在国会时，他是这个监狱的捍卫者。
But I really am wondering, Michael, did he ever have a change of heart when it came to the issues of force feeding or other issues of abuse that some have even referred to as torture? Did he ever change his stances around the way prisoners were treated?
我真的很想知道，迈克尔，他是否曾经对于强制喂食或被称为酷刑的其他虐待问题有所改变？他是否改变了自己的立场，关注囚犯们被如何对待？
I'm not aware that he changed any position on force feeding. I'm not aware that he is believed, like some believe that there was torture that was there. So he has defended what's gone on there. I have not seen him waver from that.
我没有意识到他在强制喂食问题上改变了立场。我不知道像有些人那样相信那里发生了折磨的事情。所以他为那里发生的事情进行了辩护。我没有看到他对此有所动摇。
And what about his belief in foreign policy and the use of the military at large? Would you say that this time at Guantanamo and what you reported on and learned seems to carry over in the way he thinks the military should operate at large?
那么，他的对外政策和对军队的运用的信仰是怎样的呢？你认为他在关塔那摩的那段时间以及你所报道和了解的情况是否会影响他在整个军队运作方面的看法？
Well, that's a different question and a very interesting one. I think if he runs for president, it would be one of the most important that he would face. When he ran for governor, he used his service at Guantanamo as a major selling point, in which by the way, it was a very close election in 2018.
嗯，那是一个不同的问题，也是一个非常有趣的问题。我认为如果他参选总统，那将是他面临的最重要的问题之一。当他竞选州长时，他将在关塔那摩的服务作为一个主要的卖点，顺便说一下，那是一个非常激烈的2018年选举。
He was overwhelmingly reelected recently, but that election was very close. You know, this was a very important fact. So he highlighted that military service without going into detail. It wasn't really asked about it in detail.
他最近被压倒性地连任，但这次选举却十分激烈。你知道，这是一个非常重要的事实。因此，他强调了自己的军事服务，但并没有详细描述。实际上，并没有过多地询问有关此事的详情。
But initially when he ran, that was a big part of his whole biography. More recently, you've seen him be critical of the role of the U.S. military right now in various ways. He's criticized the support for Ukraine. He said that's a territorial dispute between Russia and Ukraine, although he's walked that back a little bit, but not that much.
起初，他竞选时，这是他整个传记的重要部分。最近，您会看到他在多个方面批评了美国军方的作用。他批评了对乌克兰的支持。他说这是俄罗斯和乌克兰之间的领土争端，尽管他稍微收回了这一说法，但并没有多少。
And he's also been critical of some of the actions that the U.S. took as far as the invasion of Iraq and our presence there. He served there in Iraq, so he saw things firsthand. He hasn't talked about that in a lot of detail, but that also was interesting.
他也批评了美国在伊拉克入侵和我们在那里的存在方面所采取的一些行动。他曾在伊拉克服役，所以他亲眼见过事情。他没有详细谈论过那件事，但那也很有趣。
So again, this is something that if he runs for president, I think there'd be an awful lot more questions about, and that he might want to explain more about his views on the use of military force, as well as the use of alleged torture, the methods of rendition, how we've got people on the ground, all sorts of things that he has had direct experience with that would certainly become part of the questions about his run for president, if that's what he does.
所以，如果他竞选总统，我认为会有很多更多的问题，他可能需要更详细地解释他对使用军事力量、所谓的酷刑使用、移交方式、我们在地面上如何处理人员等各种问题的看法。这些都是他有直接经验的事情，如果他竞选总统，这些问题肯定会成为他参选的一部分。
And there have also been a lot of efforts to close Guantanamo Bay down, right? Why has it been so difficult for the prison to be shut down?
关于关闭关塔那摩湾的努力非常多，是吧？为什么关闭监狱如此困难呢？
Well, every time there's been efforts to close it down, there are many people on both sides of the aisle who've said this should be done, that you could transfer them. And there's only a handful that are still left there.
嗯，每次有关闭它的努力时，议会两派都有很多人说应该这样做，你可以转移它们。现在只剩下一小部分还在那里。
There are others who would say, and Sanis has been in this camp that he doesn't want to be seen as soft on terrorism. And he does believe, apparently, based on his statements when he ran a commercial hearing on this, he doesn't want to have them released to a US court system.
有些人会说，Sanis也是这个阵营的一员，他不想被视作对恐怖主义软弱。显然，他认为在他主持的商业听证会上说过的话，他不希望这些人被释放到美国法庭系统。
He doesn't want to have them released to a facility in Colorado, for example, the Supermax prison. So it's been very hard. Joe Biden has pledged that he would close it as have some other presidents. Trump had said he would put more people there.
他不想让他们被释放到科罗拉多的设施中，比如超级最大监狱。所以这非常困难。乔·拜登承诺他会关闭这个设施，其他一些总统也承诺过。特朗普曾表示会把更多人送到那里。
He never did that either, but he didn't intend to close it. But do you have other Obama said he would close it? Biden said he would close it. Even though there's only a couple of three dozen people who are there now still at the prison, it's still very hard to close because the question arises, well, what would you do with these people?
他也从未这么做过，但他并没有打算关闭它。但是，奥巴马说过他会关闭它，拜登也说过他会关闭它。虽然现在仍只有三四十个人在那个监狱里，但关闭它仍然很困难，因为问题是，你会怎么处理这些人呢？
What is it possible that someone who is the worst of the worst, with that person basically be able to be freed, would they be able to, if they appear to US court somehow find a way to be freed and go back and turn against the United States? So there is that concern.
有可能有个最坏的人，基本上能获得自由，如果他们在美国法庭上出现并设法获得自由，那么他们会回去反对美国吗？这是我们担心的问题。
But even though Biden was very strong and saying he would close it, I doesn't look like it's going to happen before at least his first term is over.
然而，尽管拜登表现得非常坚定，表示他将关闭它，但看起来在至少他的第一任期结束之前似乎不会发生。
Michael, what did learning about Rondis Santis during this very pivotal year? What does it tell you about the Rondis Santis that we see today, the Florida governor who very well could potentially be the future president of the United States?
迈克尔，这个非常关键的一年了解 Rondis Santis 给你带来了什么启示？这告诉你关于我们今天看到的 Rondis Santis，即非常有可能成为未来美国总统的佛罗里达州州长的信息是什么？
You know, as a reporter, sometimes you don't know all the answers, but you want to tell the readers, you know, here's what we know. Here's what we found. And I do believe that's advanced things.
你知道，作为一名记者，有时候你并不知道所有的答案，但是你想要告诉读者，你知道，这是我们所知道的。这是我们所发现的。我相信这样做是让事情进步的。
And at some point, if you guys run for president, it's inevitable that it be asked more questions because it's such a pivotal year in his life.
在某个时候，如果你们竞选总统，必然会被问更多问题，因为这是他一生中非常关键的一年。
Michael Bungard, the president of the warden said it had to have hardened him. Here's this young man comes down from Yale and Harvard law. Suddenly he's face to face with people that the defense secretary is said to the worst and he said this would have hardened to Santis. There's no way around you don't come out of that experience not being affected.
华顿的总裁迈克尔·邦加德说，这一经历一定让他变得更坚强了。就是这位从耶鲁和哈佛法学院毕业的年轻人，突然面对的是那些国防部长所说的最危险的人，邦加德表示，这一经历一定让桑蒂斯更加坚强了。无论如何，这种经历让人不可能不受到影响。
When I talk to a DeSantis's commanding officer, Captain McCarthy, he stressed like you shouldn't associate, you know, negative things to DeSantis because I was the commanding officer and he was under me and DeSantis was just following orders. Whatever he did, whether you like it or not, that's what he's doing.
当我与德桑蒂斯的指挥官麦卡锡上校交谈时，他强调说你不应该把负面的东西与德桑蒂斯联系在一起，因为我是指挥官，他是在我麾下，而德桑蒂斯只是在执行命令。无论他做什么，不管你是否喜欢，那就是他在做的事情。
But to the detainees, you know, they see people like DeSantis as emblematic. I mean, he was someone, some of these detainees say they remember, you know, so one of the detainees that we spoke to, Ahmed Abdul Aziz, he's very concerned that DeSantis might be elected president, what that means for the detainees who were still there.
但对于那些拘留者来说，他们认为像DeSantis这样的人代表了什么。我的意思是，他是一些拘留者所记得的人，一些拘留者表示，他们非常担心DeSantis可能会当选总统，对于那些仍在那里的拘留者意味着什么，我们采访过的拘留者之一，Ahmed Abdul Aziz 就非常担心。
And so, you know, he sees DeSantis through his memory of having seen him all those years ago in 2006. If he takes over, he's going to be cut for Guantanamo for the rest of the detainees. You know, say there is no doubt about that.
所以，你知道，他通过对他在2006年看到的DeSantis的记忆来看待他。如果他接管了，他将被削减为关塔那摩的其余囚犯。你知道，毫无疑问。
And I should note here that I talked to many detainee lawyers for this story, some of whom vividly recalled meeting with DeSantis at that time in 2006 and one of them, J. Wells Dixon, he said, if anyone, you know, knows, supporting Dixon, you know, how bad things were, how wrong things were at Guantanamo, it should have been someone like DeSantis who was involved with providing legal advice as to what was going on at Guantanamo at that time.
我应该在这里指出，我为这个故事采访了许多关于拘留者的律师，其中一些人生动地回忆起在2006年会见DeSantis的情形。其中一个人J.Wells Dixon说，如果有人知道在关塔那摩监狱发生的事情有多糟糕、有多错误，那应该就是像DeSantis这样提供法律建议的人了。他支持Dixon的话。
Now DeSantis has gone on to be a big defender of what's gone on there, but it just gives you this insight into the fact that there are people who are there at the time, remember meeting with DeSantis and, you know, feel like, you know, he should have learned other lessons from what he experienced there than what he has said he took away.
现在 DeSantis 已经成为那里发生的事情的一个重要的捍卫者，但这只是让你了解到当时的人们还记得与 DeSantis 会面，感觉他应该从那里学到的教训不仅仅是他所说的。
Well Michael, I'm really glad that you were able to report this story and I'm looking forward to what you report on next as the campaigns really kick up. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks, Arjun.
嗨，Michael，我真的很高兴你能报道这个故事，期待你接下来报告竞选活动的更多细节。非常感谢你今天的加入。谢谢，Arjun。
Thanks for having me. Michael Cranish is a national political investigative reporter for the post. This episode was produced by Sabi Robinson and mixed by Sean Carter. It was edited by Maggie Pennman.
感谢邀请我。迈克尔·克拉尼什是《邮报》的国家政治调查记者。这一集由萨比·罗宾逊制作，肖恩·卡特混音，由玛姬·彭曼编辑。
That's it for post reports. Thanks for listening. If you value this type of reporting, please subscribe to The Washington Post. It's a great way to support the work we do. Go to WashingtonPost.com slash subscribe. I'm Arjun Singh. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from The Washington Post.
这就是所有的邮报报道。谢谢收听。如果您支持我们这种类型的报道，请订阅《华盛顿邮报》。这是支持我们工作的好方法。请到WashingtonPost.com/subscribe。我是阿尔贾·辛格。明天我们还会带来更多《华盛顿邮报》的故事。