139. Flow State: How to Sink In, Pay Attention, and Increase Focus by Tapping into Uncertainty - YouTube

Think back to an instance where you were so immersed in what you were doing, that you forgot all about time, what else was happening around you, where you needed to be. That's Flow. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to ThinkFast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I look forward to speaking with David Melnikov. David is an Assistant Professor of Organizational Behavior at Stanford GSB. He investigates how people pursue and achieve their goals, especially with a focus on Flow. Welcome David, I'm really excited for our conversation. Thanks for having me.

回想一下，你有没有经历过这样一种情境：你全身心地投入在某件事上，忘记了时间，忘记了周围发生的事情，忘记了你本应该去的地方。这就是“心流”。我是Matt Abrahams，我在斯坦福大学商学院教授战略沟通。欢迎收听“快速思考，巧妙表达”播客。今天，我非常期待与David Melnikov对话。David是斯坦福大学商学院组织行为学的助理教授。他研究人们如何追求并实现他们的目标，特别是关注“心流”。欢迎你，David，我对我们的对话感到非常兴奋。谢谢邀请。

In my early studies in managing anxiety around public speaking, I learned about the concept of Flow. You've looked deeply into Flow. I'm wondering though for our listeners who might not be familiar with it, can you share a bit about what Flow is and what the benefits of Flow are? Sure, Flow is the state of being completely immersed and engaged in what you're doing. So normally when we pursue a goal, we imagine something that's tedious, tiresome, it requires effort, it requires self-control, it requires grit. Basically, you have to keep your foot on the gas to keep going. And to fail a goal pursuit is to fail to keep your foot on the gas.

在我早期研究如何管理公开演讲焦虑时，我学到了“心流”这个概念。你深入研究过心流。我想，对于我们的听众中可能不熟悉这个概念的人，你能简单介绍一下什么是心流以及心流的好处吗？ 当然，心流是一种完全沉浸和投入于你正在做的事情的状态。通常，当我们追求一个目标时，我们会觉得这件事是单调乏味的，需要付出努力，需要自我控制，需要坚韧不拔的精神。基本上，你必须一直踩着油门才能继续前进。而在追求目标失败时，则意味着你没有保持踩着油门。

But when you're in a Flow state, this dynamic is reversed. You don't need to exert effort and self-control to keep going. You need to exert effort and self-control to stop yourself. So if you've ever seen a child or a viewer yourself, have ever been playing a video game and someone comes in and says, can you stop? We need to go do something else. And you say, sure, and then 45 minutes later, you're still doing what you're doing. That was a Flow state.

但是，当你处于“心流”状态时，这种情况就反过来了。你不需要付出努力和自我控制来继续，而是需要付出努力和自我控制来让自己停下来。所以，如果你曾经看到孩子，或者你自己在玩电子游戏，有人进来说：“你能停一下吗？我们需要去做别的事。”你说：“好的。”结果45分钟后你还在做同样的事情。这就是“心流”状态。

The benefits of Flow are many. When you're in a Flow state, you tend to perform better at the task that you're currently engaged in. And also, Flow has benefits for mental health and wellbeing. The more Flow people experience, the happier they tend to be in their daily lives. I certainly remember when I was studying anxiety management around communication, that getting into that present moment, being in the flow of it, reduces the feelings of anxiety and actually increased enjoyment. When you mentioned video gaming, I had to smile. I had a very unhealthy relationship with Tetris for a while. Yes, Tetris is the classic example of a Flow in design too. I would get in the Flow and lose total track of time.

进入「心流」状态有很多好处。当你处于这种状态时，你往往在当前的任务上表现得更好。此外，「心流」对心理健康和幸福感也有益。人们体验到的「心流」越多，往往他们在日常生活中就会越幸福。我确实记得，当我在学习与沟通相关的焦虑管理时，进入当下、沉浸在「心流」中，能减少焦虑感并增加乐趣。你提到视频游戏时，我不禁笑了。我一度对俄罗斯方块有一种不太健康的沉迷。没错，俄罗斯方块也是设计上「心流」的一个经典例子。我会进入「心流」并完全忘记时间的流逝。

So how can one get into a state of Flow and are there different strategies for maintaining a state of Flow? One of the main findings of my research is that the typical advice that you get about how to achieve Flow seems to be wrong. So typically, when people advise you on how to enter a Flow state, they say that what you need is an optimal level of challenge in the task you're pursuing. So you want a task that's not so difficult as to be frustrating, but you also want a task that's not so easy as to be boring. My work suggests that that's not true, and we don't really need to get into the details of the work.

那么，怎样才能进入心流状态，并且是否有不同的策略来保持这种状态呢？我的研究主要发现之一是，关于如何达到心流状态的传统建议似乎是错误的。通常，当人们建议你如何进入心流状态时，他们会说你需要在你正在进行的任务中找到一个最佳的挑战水平。因此，你需要一个不至于让你感到沮丧的任务，但也要避免过于简单以至于无聊的任务。我的研究表明，这并不准确，我们不需要深入讨论研究的具体细节。

We can just see that this is not true if you walk into any casino and go look at the people playing slot machines. There's nothing easier and less challenging in the world than putting a quarter in a slot and playing a lever. But a slot machine is one of the most potent sources of Flow there is. People will be in an almost trance-like state, engaging in this activity that is nowhere near any sort of Goldilocks zone of challenge. So if it's not a moderate level of challenge, what is the source of Flow? The source of Flow, according to my research, is the engaging in an activity that allows you to reduce uncertainty about your future.

我们只要走进任何一家赌场，看看那些玩老虎机的人，就能发现这不是真的。世界上没有什么比把硬币投入老虎机然后拉杆更简单、更没挑战性的了。但老虎机是最强大的“心流”来源之一。人们会进入一种近乎恍惚的状态，进行这种和“适中难度”完全无关的活动。那么，如果不是适中的挑战水平，那“心流”的来源是什么呢？根据我的研究，心流的来源是参与一种能让你减少对未来不确定性的活动。

Engaging in actions that reduce possible future outcomes, or ideally eliminate all possible future outcomes except for one. The elimination of possible futures induces a state of Flow, so concretely returning to the case of a slot machine. Before you pull a lever on that slot machine, there are dozens and dozens of possible outcomes, specifically financial payouts, and you're highly uncertain about which of those outcomes will be realized. Then you pull the lever, and then those symbols appear on the reel, and all of that uncertainty is suddenly eliminated, you've reduced many, many, many possible futures to one.

进行那些减少未来可能结果的行为，或者理想情况下消除所有未来可能结果，除了一个结果。消除可能的未来会引发一种**心流**状态，具体来说，以老虎机为例。在你拉动老虎机拉杆之前，有许多可能的结果，特别是金钱方面的奖励，你无法确定哪个结果会实现。然后你拉动拉杆，转轴上的符号出现，所有的不确定性立刻消除了，你把众多可能的未来结果缩减到一个。

And that hit of uncertainty reduction draws you in, sucks you in, and captures your attention and induces a state of Flow. And what's sort of magical about the slot machine is you can do it right over again, as many times as you want, and you'll get that same hit of uncertainty reduction again and again and again. So that hit of uncertainty reduction that cultivates a Flow state. It's fascinating. Several things you said just really intrigued me. I like this notion of cultivating. I like that word. It sounds like something you work on, you tend to. You teach organizational behavior, you're in a business school.

那种减少不确定性的感觉会吸引你，把你吸进去，抓住你的注意力，诱导你进入一种“心流”状态。而关于老虎机的魔力在于，你可以一次又一次地做，就像你想要的那样多次，每次都能再次获取那种减少不确定性的感觉。这种减少不确定性的体验能够培养出一种心流状态，真的很迷人。你说的好几件事都让我非常感兴趣。我喜欢这个“培养”这个概念，我喜欢这个词，它听起来像是某种你需要努力去做、去关注的事情。你教授组织行为学，而且还是在商学院。

How do these principles you've just described apply directly in business, in running meetings or in our interactions with others, the goals that we set for our function, our role, the way in which we create our strategy. How do these all come together? I think that it invites you to think about the amount of, when you give someone a task, when you give someone a goal, and you frame a goal for that person, it invites you to think about the amount of uncertainty associated with the goal you've assigned. So as, at the top of my head, suppose you are thinking of creating a sales competition, you could, there are many ways of framing the sales competition as an incentive. You can say the winner of the sales competition, say there are 50 salespeople, and you say the winner of this competition is going to win a ticket for an all expense paid vacation. Now there's only one winner here. You can either win or lose, and probably when you have 49 competitors, the likelihood of winning is not very high. So there's not, you sort of already know the outcome. There's not much uncertainty for you to reduce by actually engaging in this sales competition. You could have alternatively had various prizes, a first place, second place, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and maybe if funds are limited, they get, it's not an all expense paid trip for everyone, but as, but in this case, if the out, the relevant outcome is not just win lose, but come in first, come in second, come in third, come in fourth, now there's a lot more uncertainty available for the competitors to reduce through the competition, and that will induce more flow, and we already talked about the benefits of that result in greater performance.

你刚才提到的这些原则是如何直接应用到商业中的呢，比如在召开会议或与人互动时，在我们为职能部门设定目标或在制定战略时，这些原则是如何结合在一起的呢？我认为这些原则促使你去思考，在你给别人分配任务或设定目标时，伴随这个目标的不确定性有多大。 比方说，如果你在考虑举办一个销售竞赛，作为一种激励手段，这里有很多种方式可以设定这个竞赛。你可以说，这次竞赛的赢家，也就是从50个销售人员中脱颖而出的那一个人，将获得一张全额报销的度假票。现在，在这种情况下，只有一个赢家，你要么赢，要么输，而且当你有49个竞争对手时，获胜的可能性不太高。所以你大概 already 知道结果，不用通过参与这个销售竞赛来减少太多不确定性。 另一种方法是可以设置多个奖项，设立一至六名，比如，如果资金有限，虽然不是每个人都能享受全额报销的旅行，但在这种情况下，相关的结果就不仅仅是赢或输，而是获得第一名、第二名、第三名、第四名等。这样对于参赛者来说，就有更多的不确定性可以通过竞赛来减少，从而激发更多的参与热情。我们已经讨论过，这种方式可以带来更好的表现。

I find it interesting and counterintuitive often when managers are trained and leaders are trained, it's all about reducing uncertainty. Yes. To make things clearer, it will prioritize. Yes. And here I'm hearing that we can actually leverage uncertainty to be beneficial. There's a misunderstanding that uncertainty is inherently bad, and it's easy to fall into that trap because remember flow emerges from the reduction of uncertainty. So ultimately, you do want to reduce the uncertainty, but there must be uncertainty there to be reduced in the first place. So we shouldn't interpret the value of reducing uncertainty as meaning that we should eliminate certainty to begin with. You want to give people opportunities to reduce uncertainty because that is where flow comes from. On this podcast, we've talked to your colleague, Succi Huang, and we've talked to Katie Milkman about goals and goal pursuit, particularly for individuals. This seems to me to be yet another tool that we can use in our own pursuit of the goals we have, fitness, health, well-being, being social. Do you yourself use some of these tools to help you engage in more meaningful goal pursuit? Yeah, I certainly do. I try to set goals for myself that are the outcomes of which are as uncertain as possible so that I can reduce as much uncertainty as possible through my actions. This can take variety of forms. A lot of what I do is write. Writing is as important as it is. It can be a real slog for a lot of people, myself included. And what I like to do is ask myself, what way of framing this writing activity would induce as much uncertainty as possible? Is it how many words can I write in the next 30 minutes? Is it how many paragraphs can I complete in the next hour? Is it how good of an introduction to this paper can I write? Now the outcome isn't number but some abstract notion of quality. And you can go through all these different ways of framing what you're doing. And for each framing, just ask yourself, how uncertain am I about the outcome of my goal if I adopt this framing or that framing and pick the one that induces the most uncertainty and I do that constantly?

我发现一个有趣且违反直觉的现象：经理和领导者在接受培训时，通常都强调要减少不确定性。通过减少不确定性，可以使事情变得更清晰、更易于优先处理。然而，我听到这里的一种观点是，我们实际上可以利用不确定性来带来好处。有一种误解认为不确定性本质上是坏的，这很容易令人陷入这种陷阱，因为我们要记住，所谓的“心流”就是在减少不确定性时产生的。因此，从根本上说，我们确实希望减少不确定性，但前提是必须先存在不确定性可供减少。所以，我们不应该将减少不确定性的价值理解为一开始就应该消除不确定性。我们需要给人们机会去减少不确定性，因为“心流”正是由此而来。 在这个播客中，我们与您的同事Succi Huang和Katie Milkman讨论了目标及其实现，特别是针对个人的目标。这似乎是我们在追求健身、健康、社交等目标时可以使用的另一种工具。您自己是否使用这些工具来帮助您更有意义地追求目标？ 是的，我确实这样做。我试着为自己设定那些结果尽可能不确定的目标，以便通过我的行动尽可能减少不确定性。这可以采取多种形式。我做的很多事情与写作有关。写作虽然重要，但对许多人来说，包括我自己，可以是一项艰巨的任务。我喜欢问自己，有什么方式可以让这个写作活动变得尽可能具有不确定性？比如，在接下来的30分钟内，我能写多少字？或者，在接下来的一个小时内，我能写多少段？再如，我能写出多好的文章开头？结果不再是一个具体的数量，而是一种抽象的质量概念。你可以通过所有这些不同的方式来设定你的目标，然后问自己，如果采用这种或那种设定，我对结果的了解程度如何？选择能带来最大不确定性的那种设定，我会不断这样做。

I need to do this to help me in my writing because writing for me is challenging. But I'm also thinking about a personal goal I have to work on my balance and stability. As I get older, that's a more important thing. And immediately I'm starting to think about I want to look for streaks. How long can I go balancing? How many ways can I do this, achieve this one task? I like that a lot. Already I'm excited to do it versus the way I was previously reframing it. To offer another piece of concrete advice, streaks, if we think about it, are really potent sources of flow when the activity that we're talking about is something that you're already quite good at. If you're Steph Curry and you're making 95% of your free throws, if you think in terms of a streak, the length of that streak is really uncertain. I mean, that streak could go on for a really long time. But if you're me and I might make, I have no idea, maybe 10%. That streak isn't going to go on more than two. I mean, there's just no way I'm making three in a row, certainly no way I'm making four in a row. So I sort of know before I start how long that streak is going to go. So for Steph Curry, streaks are going to be far more potent than me. So what should I do? What I should do is not think in terms of how many can I get in a row. What I should do is think, what are the fewest number of misses I can achieve before my first success? Because that number is highly uncertain, much more uncertain than how many successes can I get in a row. So when you're great at something, streaks are good, when you're not so good at something, think what's the fewest number of misses before my first success? I really like that. And that is, it's motivational and it's something that I think all of us can do in many different aspects of our lives. Thank you.

我需要这样做来帮助我写作，因为写作对我来说是个挑战。但我也在考虑一个个人目标，就是提高我的平衡能力和稳定性。随着年龄的增长，这变得越来越重要。于是我立刻想到我想要追求连胜记录。我能平衡多久？我能用多少种方式来完成这个任务？我非常喜欢这个想法。我现在已经非常期待去做了，而不是像之前那样重新架构它。 另外，我想提供一个具体的建议：连胜记录实际上是非常强大的动力源，特别是当我们谈论的是你已经很擅长的活动时。如果你是史蒂芬·库里，他可以投中95%的罚球，那么从连胜的角度考虑，这次连胜可能会持续很长时间。但如果是我，我可能只能投中10%。那个连胜记录可能不超过两次，我肯定不可能连续投中三次，绝对不可能连续投中四次。所以在我开始之前，我大概知道连胜会持续多久。因此，对于史蒂芬·库里来说，连胜记录的动力远远大于对我的动力。那么我应该怎么做呢？我不应该想着连续能成功多少次，而应该思考：我在第一次成功之前能错多少次？因为这个数字高度不确定，比我能连续成功多少次要不确定得多。所以，当你在某件事上非常出色时，连胜记录是很好的激励；当你在某件事上不太擅长时，应该考虑的是在第一次成功之前你能错多少次。我非常喜欢这个方法，因为它具有激励作用，而且我认为我们所有人可以在生活的各个方面都运用这个方法。谢谢。

Some of my most flow-like experiences happen when I'm with others in conversation, playing a sport, interacting in some way. Is there research on how we can best collaborate with others to create shared flow experience? And what role does communication play in that, if any? Sure. So in any communicative context, there is some goal and there's some uncertainty associated with that and you can reduce that uncertainty through communication. And the degree to which the communication reduces that uncertainty will lead to more or less flow in that conversation. So for instance, suppose I'm an employee and you're a manager and I come to you in search of feedback on a job that I did. I want to know how well I did on a particular task or how well I'm doing on my job in general. Depending on how you respond and how I expect you to respond, you can reduce more or less uncertainty about my performance. The more uncertainty you reduce, the more flow I'm going to experience during that conversation. So for you, that means a few things. One, it means that your feedback needs to be trustworthy. And in general, trustworthiness is going to be really important for flow and communication because if I can't trust what you're saying, what you're saying cannot possibly reduce very much uncertainty for me. Second, you need to be clear. That's kind of obvious. If you're unclear, I don't know what the heck you're saying. Then of course, what you're saying can't reduce very much uncertainty for me. And third, you need to be sufficiently specific. So maybe you're a manager who is the kind of person who will give me one or two responses to the question, how am I doing? You might say you are meeting or exceeding expectations or you are not meeting or exceeding expectations. Now, if I'm a decent employee, I already knew that I was meeting or exceeding expectations. You've not reduced any uncertainty for me. For me to get information, what I need is something specific. I need to know, well, am I meeting or am I succeeding? Or am I succeeding? If I'm succeeding, by how much am I exceeding? And in what way am I exceeding? So you need to be trustworthy, clear, and specific in order for communication to be a source of flow. Excellent.

我在与他人交谈、运动或互动时，往往会体验到“心流”的感觉。那么，有没有研究探讨我们如何与他人更好地合作来共同创造这种“心流”体验呢？在这其中，沟通扮演了什么角色？ 当然。在任何交流情境中，都会有某些目标和一定的不确定性，而沟通能够帮助减少这种不确定性。沟通减少不确定性的程度，直接影响到对话中“心流”感觉的强弱。 举个例子，假设我是员工，你是经理，我来找你寻求对某项工作的反馈。我想知道我在某项任务中的表现如何，或者整体工作表现如何。根据你反馈的方式和我对你反馈的预期，你可以不同程度地减少我对我表现的不确定性。你减轻的不确定性越多，我在交流中体验到的“心流”感越强。 对于管理者，你需要做到以下几点： 1. **可信度**：你的反馈必须是可信的。总的来说，可信性对于“心流”和沟通都非常重要。如果我不信任你所说的，那么你所说的内容就无法大幅度减少我的不确定性。 2. **清晰度**：你需要表达清晰。这点显而易见，如果你的表达不清楚，我就无法理解你所说的内容，自然也无法减少我的不确定性。 3. **具体性**：你需要足够具体。假如你是一个只会给出一两个答案的管理者，比如“你达到了预期”或“没有达到预期”。如果我是一个好员工，我可能已经知道自己是否达到了预期，这并不能减少我的不确定性。要减少不确定性，我需要的是更具体的信息，比如“我达标了还是超标了？超标了多少？在哪些方面超标？” 因此，为了让沟通成为“心流”的源泉，你需要做到可信、清晰和具体。

When I was in graduate school, I studied uncertainty reduction theory in communication. And it's exactly as you're talking about. Most communication and communication that we feel most intensely about and can get in those flow states is where we are reducing uncertainty for each other. So mutual disclosure and really working towards that. Really, really fascinating. This is a total tangential curiosity I have. What's the distinction in your mind between ambiguity and uncertainty? Because in communication in particular, some of our most important goals we achieve through ambiguity, where we're purposely trying to be unclear. How does that relate to this notion of uncertainty? Because when I'm ambiguous, I'm certainly increasing uncertainty. This is a professional curiosity. Do you make a distinction?

当我在读研究生时，我学习了交流中的不确定性减少理论。这正是你所谈论的。大多数的交流，尤其是那些让我们感受最强烈并能进入流畅状态的交流，都是我们在为彼此减少不确定性。所以，彼此开放和共同努力减少不确定性是非常引人入胜的一个过程。我有一个完全离题的好奇心。你心中“模糊性”和“不确定性”有什么区别？因为尤其在交流中，我们通过模糊性来实现一些最重要的目标，故意让自己显得不清楚。那么，这与不确定性的概念有何关系？因为当我使用模糊性时，我显然是在增加不确定性。这是我的一个专业性好奇心。你会区别对待这两个概念吗？

So I would say to be ambiguous is just to be a source of uncertainty for others in conversation. I think that there can be an art to being ambiguous and seeming specific. Sometimes people can go away thinking they've learned a lot. And then when you actually look back and recall what they said, you realize that that could have meant anything. In that sense, it is possible to reduce uncertainty in the mind of another while in fact being ambiguous. But I do think that generally speaking, they're going to be very closely linked in the sense that the more and biggest you are, the more uncertainty there's going to be among the members of your audience. In that resonates. That resonates. Often when we teach communication, we focus on fidelity, accuracy, and clarity, reducing uncertainty. And yet many of the things we do in our lives, deception, relationship initiation, politeness, we invoke uncertainty and ambiguity to help us get through it.

那么，我会说，含糊其词只是为对话中的其他人带来不确定性。我认为，含糊其词并显得具体有时是一种艺术。有时候，人们会以为他们学到了很多东西。然而，当你回头仔细回想他们说的话时，你会发现那些话可以有很多种解释。在这种情况下，尽管实际上含糊不清，仍有可能减少他人心中的不确定性。但我确实认为，一般来说，含糊和不确定性是密切相关的，也就是说，你越含糊，听众中的不确定性就会越多。这一点很有共鸣。当我们教沟通技巧时，我们通常关注忠实、准确和清晰，从而减少不确定性。然而，在我们生活中的许多事情，如欺骗、建立关系、礼貌待人，我们会利用不确定性和模糊性来帮助我们应对。

That's right. So we've talked about the role of flow in goal setting and goal attainment. You study goals in general. Besides flow, do you have other advice or recommendations for how we can set goals we can achieve and work towards accomplishing them? Well, my general, I think the most novel advice that I can offer is actually something that we touched on earlier, which is that I think the way you first said, you said, how can we set achievable goals? And that's a very common question. And most people want to set goals that are as attainable as possible. And that's not bad advice. You certainly don't want to set a goal that you know you can't obtain. But you also don't want to set a goal that's too attainable. And I think people can get off track by setting goals that are so easy, so attainable that there's no uncertainty about whether to what extent it will be achieved. So whether you have a weight loss goal or a professional goal or any kind of academical or health goal, I would say, don't worry. I would say attainability shouldn't be the strongest or most salient focus. You want to find some sweet spot where you are, there's some degree of uncertainty about whether to what extent you're going to achieve it. Now of course when doing this, you need to account for the cost of failing to achieve. But given that, you really want to have the attainability of the goal be as uncertain as possible given the cost of failure. I think that's very helpful. I know in my own life and the people I'm close to setting goals are things that we think we can achieve right away and are very clearly defined. And maybe the best step is to go one beyond that and see to build in that uncertainty.

没错。所以我们之前讨论了"心流"在目标设定和实现中的作用。您研究目标设定，除了"心流"以外，您还有其他建议或推荐吗？如何设定我们能够实现的目标并努力去完成它们？ 我认为我能提供的最有新意的建议其实是之前提到的，这就是，您开始时说的，如何设定能够实现的目标。这是个很常见的问题，大多数人都希望设定能够达成的目标。这并不是错误的建议，当然，您不想设定一个自己知道不可能实现的目标。但您也不应该设定一个太容易达成的目标。我认为，人们可能会因为设定了非常简单、非常容易达成的目标而偏离轨道，因为这种目标完全没有不确定性。 无论您是有减肥目标、工作目标，还是学术或健康目标，我想说，不要太担心目标的可达成性。您应该找到一个平衡点，使得目标的达成存在一定的不确定性。当然，在这样做的时候，您需要考虑未能实现目标的代价。但在此基础上，您应该在代价可接受的范围内，使目标的可达成性尽量保持不确定性。 我认为这是非常有帮助的。从我的生活经验和我身边的人来看，我们通常会设定那些觉得能很快实现且定义明确的目标。但也许更好的一步是超越这些，将不确定性纳入其中。

I want to get meta a bit. You study a very complex topic, flow. You talk about certainty and uncertainty in ways that most people don't think about them. What techniques and tactics do you use as you think about explaining complex concepts like this that others could benefit from? Because you do a very nice job of helping you use analogies, use examples. What's your thought process on how do I take something that's complex and make it accessible so people can understand it? I think it's a combination of two things. One that just so happens to be the case that a lot of complicated concepts don't come easy to me. It requires a lot of work and I start off confused and frustrated and then there's some aha moment. What I try my very best to do is remember exactly what happened in my mind before that aha moment. What was the thing that made it click? It's actually pretty easy to get so caught up in the Eureka moment and then forget what it was that got you there. When you go back and start trying to explain something, your audience is just as confused as you were when you started.

我想深入探讨一下元思维。你研究一个非常复杂的话题——心流。你谈论确定性和不确定性的方法与大多数人不同。你在解释像这种复杂概念时，使用了哪些方法和策略，使他人能够受益？因为你做得很好，能通过类比和例子来帮助理解。你是如何思考把复杂的内容变得易于理解的？我认为这有两个方面的原因。其一，很多复杂的概念对我来说并不容易掌握，需要付出很多努力。我一开始通常会感到困惑和沮丧，然后才会有“啊哈”的顿悟时刻。我尽量记得在顿悟前头脑中发生了什么，什么因素让一切变得豁然开朗。其实，很容易沉浸在那种“发现”的喜悦中，而忘了是什么让你到达那个点。当你回头试图解释某个概念时，你的听众也同样会像你一开始那样感到困惑。

I really like this idea of the unlock coming from the moment before it all made sense. Reminding yourself what you went through to get there and using that as a catapult to help you explain it to other people. We're often so happy that we just figured it out that we don't remind ourselves what happened right before. That's right. That I think could be a huge unlock for many people. Thank you for that. Before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions. One I'll tailor specifically to you and then the other two are questions I ask everybody on the show. Are you ready for that? I think so. All right. I'm very curious, David. What is something you do to invite flow into your own life? I sometimes will actually, and I've always, ever since I was a little kid, I loved putting Lego bricks together. I will use that as a way of getting into a flow state. For me, that works very well. What are things that you do?

我非常喜欢这个想法，即“顿悟”来自于一切变得清晰之前的那个时刻。提醒自己为了到达现在而经历的过程，并用这个作为助力去向别人解释。我们常常因为刚刚搞明白了事情而感到高兴，却忘了回想之前发生了什么。这确实很重要，我认为这对很多人来说都是一个巨大的启发。谢谢你！ 在结束之前，我想问你三个问题。一个是专门为你量身定制的，另两个是我在节目中问每个人的问题。你准备好了吗？ 我想是的。 好的。我非常好奇，大卫，你做什么来让自己进入“心流”状态？ 其实我有时会，从小以来我就喜欢拼乐高积木。我会用拼乐高来让自己进入心流状态，对我来说这个方法很有效。你会做哪些事情来达到这一点？

This is, don't tell my dean about this, but what I actually do in my office pretty frequently is, and actually before I even tell you what I do, let me explain why I do this because flow, flow increases performance and makes you happier. But sometimes people will engage in a flow activity like Legos as a distraction. I think that's because when you're doing a creative test, so for me, when I'm writing, sometimes I'm just stuck. I need a reset. I'm just in a mental rut, and I need to leave that mental state I'm in and just come back fresh to the problem that I'm trying to solve. And entering into a flow state for five or 10 minutes is a great way of sort of wiping the board clean, and it allows me to come back mentally fresh to the problem that I was trying to solve. And oftentimes, it's easier to find a breakthrough that way.

这件事，不要告诉我的院长，其实我在办公室里经常做的事情是——而且在告诉你我做什么之前，我得先解释一下为什么我会这么做。因为“心流”可以提高表现，增加幸福感。但有时人们会把像乐高这样的心流活动当作一种分心手段。我认为这是因为当你在做创意工作时，比如我在写作时，有时会卡住，感觉需要重新开始。我只是陷入了一个思维的困境，我需要离开当前的心理状态，然后以一种清新的心态回到我要解决的问题上。而进入心流状态五到十分钟，是一种很好地清空思绪的方法，它让我能以清新的心态回到我试图解决的问题上。通常，这样更容易找到突破口。

So how do I do that? In my office, there's a recycling bin that's, and I have a bunch of markers that I use to write on my whiteboard, and when no one's in my office, I'll take that recycling bin out and I'll toss my markers into the recycling bin, trying to get as many in a row as possible. It's actually become kind of good at this. That's why I think in terms of streaks and not how many misses, what are the fewest number of misses I can get before my first success? And I'll just do that for a while, and then take the markers out of the bin, put the bin back, and go back to my writing. So I've learned a couple things from that. Yes. One, I always have to knock on your door before I come in. I don't want to get hit by an errant pen. That's right. And second, for your birthday or for a holiday gift, I'm going to get you little basketballs instead of being kids. I would actually, I would genuinely love that. Yes. Yes. Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? I would say Laurie Santos. I know so Laurie is a professor of psychology at Yale.

那么，我该怎么做呢？在我的办公室里有一个回收箱，我经常用一些记号笔在白板上写东西。当办公室里没有人的时候，我会把回收箱拿出来，然后把这些记号笔扔进回收箱里，尝试连续投中尽可能多的记号笔。实际上，我在这个游戏上已经变得有些擅长了。这也是为什么我会考虑连续成功的次数而不是失误的次数。我会想，能在成功前保持最少的失误次数是多少？我就这样不断重复这个过程，然后把记号笔从回收箱里拿出来，再把回收箱放回原位，继续我的写作。因此，我从中学到了一些东西。是的。一是，每次进我办公室前都要敲门。我可不想被飞来的笔砸到。没错。二是，送生日礼物或节日礼物时，我打算送你一些小篮球而不是这些笔。我真的会非常喜欢这个礼物。是的。第二个问题，您钦佩的交流者是谁，为什么？我会说Laurie Santos。我知道，她是耶鲁大学的心理学教授。

She's also the host of, I believe it's the Happiness Lab podcast, which is fabulous. I know her, I got my PhD at Yale in the psychology department, so I've known her for a long time. What's just always impressed me is her ability to, I mentioned trustworthiness as being a key to flow in conversation. It's obviously just something that's inherently important in communication. And it's, I think, really hard for someone whose job it is to constantly communicate to the public to always make sure that information is accurate. I think that there are some incentives in place that can lead people to maybe say things that don't have all the evidence in the world to support it and say it anyway. And I could just say Laurie, in addition to being crystal clear in the way she communicates and compelling on the way she communicates as a scientific communicator, she's exceptionally trustworthy and I really admire that. Excellent. Final question and trustworthiness might be a component of that answer is what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? Yes, I think you guessed it. I think for me, trustworthiness, clarity. As I said, specificity. I think those are just absolutely essential in order for communication to be successful.

她也是《幸福实验室》播客的主持人，节目非常出色。我认识她，因为我也是在耶鲁大学心理学系获得的博士学位，所以我认识她很久了。我一直对她印象深刻的是她在交流中的可信度。我提到过，可信度是对话流畅的关键，这显然在交流中是非常重要的。我认为，对于一个需要不断向公众传递信息的人来说，确保信息的准确性确实是非常难的。我认为，有些激励机制可能会导致人们说出一些没有完全证据支持的话。但我可以说，劳里不仅在科学交流方面讲话清晰、有说服力，而且她极其值得信赖，我非常钦佩这一点。 最后一个问题，可信度可能是答案的一部分。成功交流的前三个要素是什么？是的，你猜对了。对我来说，可信度、清晰度。正如我所说，具体性。我认为这些都是成功交流的绝对必要要素。

Well, you have done a fantastic job today being very clear, being very specific. And I certainly trust you. And we appreciate the insight and I encourage everybody to think about how you can build flow into your practice to help you better achieve the goals that you hold for yourself. David, thank you for your time. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening to another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about goals and goal attainment, listen to episode 57 with Succi Huang, an episode 104 with Katie Milkman. This episode was recorded at Stanford Video, produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Please find us wherever you get your podcasts and make sure to check out YouTube as well. Follow, like, and support us on Instagram and LinkedIn.

你今天干得非常出色，说得非常清楚、具体。我确实信任你。我们感谢你的见解，并鼓励大家思考如何将“心流”融入你的实践中，以帮助你更好地达到自己的目标。David，谢谢你抽出时间。谢谢你邀请我。谢谢你收听《Think Fast, Talk Smart》播客的另一集。要了解更多关于目标和目标实现的信息，请收听第57集与Succi Huang的对话，以及第104集与Katie Milkman的对话。本集录制于斯坦福视频，由Jenny Luna、Ryan Campos和我——Matt Abrahams共同制作。请在你获取播客的所有平台找到我们，并一定要查看YouTube。关注、点赞并在Instagram和LinkedIn上支持我们。