All-In Summit: Tobi Lutke on consumer spending, teams, Amazon, AI, and more

I'm gonna join us for the top of 5. Don't be coming out. Hey! Hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey. I'm going on, I'm going on. You'll let your winner try it. Rainman, David Satt! I'm going on, I'm going on, I'm going on. And it said, we open source it to the fans and they've just got crazy with them. Love you guys! Nice Queen of Kinwah! I'm going on, I'm going on, I'm going on! I'm going on, I'm going on! I'm going on, I'm going on.

我要加入我们的前五名。别出来。嘿！嘿，嘿，嘿，嘿。嘿，嘿，嘿。我要继续前进，我要继续前进。你们让胜利者尝试一下。Rainman，大卫·萨特！我要继续前进，我要继续前进，我要继续前进。并且它说，我们向粉丝们开源了它们，他们对此疯狂了。爱你们！金华的美女！我要继续前进，我要继续前进，我要继续前进！我要继续前进，我要继续前进！我要继续前进，我要继续前进。

Okay, everybody. This is a real honor. So this is an incredible founder success story. Just your average everyday CEO founder of an $82 billion public company sitting here. So Toby and I met a few years ago. The origin story of Shopify is pretty legendary, which is that he was in Whistler, snowboarding. He met his future wife there, Canadian. They moved to Germany. Toby started a store to sell the snowboards. Then moved to Ottawa, my hometown. Helping a bigger from Ottawa. That's one dust. I think you're one of the first developers of Ruby actually that really commercialized. And Toby built a website to sell snowboards, but then abstracted that, started to sell the software that sold the snowboards. And fast forward, that is what Shopify has become. And it's been quite an incredible success story. A, because you were able to raise a lot of money building a business in Ottawa. B, because then you took it public on the NASDAQ. C, you got a lot of COVID tailwinds. D, you had to deal with COVID headwinds. But then along the way, you've really been very transparent and honest about the culture of building companies. And some of the mistakes you've made you put out there. We're gonna talk about those in a second.

大家好，这真的是一个很荣幸的事情。这是一个令人难以置信的创始人成功故事。我们现在坐在这里，是一家市值820亿美元的上市公司的CEO创始人。我和Toby在几年前相识。Shopify的起源故事传为美谈，他当时在惠斯勒滑雪，邂逅了他未来的妻子，一位加拿大人。他们搬到了德国，Toby开了一家销售滑雪板的店铺。然后搬到了我的家乡渥太华，帮助一家渥太华的大公司。这是一个起点。我想你实际上是最早将Ruby商业化的开发者之一，Toby建立了一个网站来销售滑雪板，但是后来他抽象出来，开始销售销售滑雪板的软件。快进到现在，这就是Shopify所成为的。这是一个非常了不起的成功故事。首先，你能够在渥太华筹集到很多资金来经营业务。其次，你在纳斯达克上市。第三，你得到了很多因疫情而产生的有利因素。第四，你不得不应对疫情带来的困境。但沿途中，你对建立公司的文化非常透明和诚实。你公开了一些你犯过的错误。我们一会儿会谈到这些。

But I wanna start with more macro because we just had Ray on stage. You run a big e-commerce business. You see consumer spending. We know that the consumer is the largest part of GDP. So we must have a sense of whether the consumer is turning over. We're seeing all the headlines as they're a recession, as they're not, hard landing, soft landing. Where is the economy from your vantage point?

我想先从宏观角度开始讨论，因为刚才我们有雷伊在台上演讲。你经营着一个大型电商业务，可以看到消费者支出。我们知道消费者是GDP的最大组成部分。因此，我们必须有一个判断消费者是否出现变化的感觉。我们看到了所有关于经济衰退的头条新闻，有人说会有经济衰退，有人说不会，有人说是硬着陆，有人说是软着陆。从你的角度来看，经济处于何种状态？

Yeah, so, I mean, you have an amazing perspective, but I don't think it's a, it's a, it's a credible witness to the entire economy. It's about half a trillion dollar has been transacted for Shopify in its lifetime. And it is really, really fun to do the analysis on it, but like fundamentally, the products sold on Shopify are not, are the products people want, not the products people need. And I think this specifically shifts the landscape a little bit. What be, and also the other fun thing is, it's really good for falsifying bad media narratives, because as always, it's like everyone puts up a chart and says this is the answer. And then we get to dig in one level deeper and actually see what are the constituent parts underneath the chart and everything, the story changes. So, we definitely see people react. Like we know a recession is going on, or at least it changes behavior, but particular way in which it changes behavior is probably not a fully explored story outside of Python notebooks and Compysite Shopify. Because fundamentally what people do is, in most categories, they shift one quality level downwards. So, if you ended up like shopping at like medium spend level, you might look for fast fashion afterwards.

是的，我是说，你有非常独特的观点，但我不认为这是一个可信的对整个经济的证词。Shopify在其存在期间已经进行了大约五千亿美元的交易。对此进行分析确实非常有趣，但从根本上讲，Shopify上销售的产品并不是人们需要的产品，而是人们想要的产品。我认为这会对市场格局产生一些变化。另外一个有趣的事情是，它非常适合推翻媒体的错误叙述，因为通常情况下，每个人都会放上一张图表并说这就是答案。然后我们可以深入挖掘一层，实际上看看图表下面的组成部分和故事，一切都会改变。所以，我们确实看到人们的反应。我们知道经济在衰退，或者至少会改变人们的行为，但它如何改变人们的行为的方式可能还没有完全在Python笔记本和Compysite Shopify之外得到深入研究。因为从根本上来说，人们在大多数类别中会向下转移一个质量等级。所以，如果你原先购物的价位是中等水平，你可能会在之后寻找快时尚产品。

In some cases, in our case, this means people might drop out of the Shopify ecosystem and go to purchase, maybe clothing at Walmart or something. In some cases, on the top of a market, we don't have every LVMH brand or Shopify, so people might have purchases there and actually arrive at a challenger brand and that is on our platform. So, honestly, the numbers actually are unchanging, the dynamics that make up the numbers are changing from all of this factor. That's fascinating.

在某些情况下，比如我们的情况，这意味着人们可能会退出Shopify生态系统去购买商品，比如在沃尔玛购买服装之类的。在某些情况下，在市场的顶部，我们没有每个路威酩轩品牌或Shopify，所以人们可能会在那里购买，实际上会到达一个挑战品牌，而这个品牌在我们的平台上。所以，老实说，数字实际上是不变的，构成数字的动态是由所有这些因素所改变的。这真是令人着迷。

Have you, when you think about building the business, I think Stripe's mission is something like to maximize the GDP of the internet. Is that roughly your mission as well? I think, second order, yes, but honestly, Shopify prays about the ultra-entrepreneurship of people reaching for independence and it's really causing entrepreneurship to be a more casual thing rather than this huge decision. Like, being able to be an entrepreneur in your lunch break so that you can maybe escape like a career which you chose for wrong reasons and you will kind of people, like you discover, like myself, you will kind of personally really can't work for other people and retail and building shops and businesses has been around for a long time, thousands of years. It's something, it is one of the most accessible mechanisms of independence. And as the internet is just a huge part of economy now, like the ease by which you could start a stand in the buzzer needs to somehow be translated to the digital world. And I, I mean, we talk, you guys talk a lot about policy and incentive systems and what's important. I do think the thing that's missing and sometimes in these conversations is friction. Like honestly, friction shapes the world so much more than like what laws or what policies anyone gonna pass to cause more entrepreneurship. But if you make it harder, you're gonna get less of it. And frankly, most people in the world work for small businesses, like depending on where you look, 60 to 80%. So that seems like an incredibly aligning mission. We're gonna maximize entrepreneurship, give people independence, a path to escape the drudgery of whatever they may be doing, be in control of their own lives. That's very empowering.

在你考虑创办商业时，我认为Stripe的使命大致是最大化互联网的GDP。你们的使命大致也是这样吗？我觉得二级目标是这样的，但老实说，Shopify更加看重人们追求独立创业的态度，这导致创业变得更加随意，而不再是一个巨大的决定。比如，你可以在午休时创业，这样或许可以逃离因为错误原因选择的职业，而像我自己一样，发现真的无法为他人工作，零售和建立店铺和企业已经存在了很长时间，几千年了。它是最具可达性的独立机制之一。而互联网现在已经成为经济的一个巨大部分，就像你可以在街头摆摊开店一样容易，这种便利性应该在数字世界中得到体现。我们谈论的很多是政策和激励体系以及重要的事情。但我认为在这些讨论中有时候遗漏了阻力。老实说，阻力对于塑造世界的影响要大于任何法律或政策能够引发更多创业的影响。但如果你增加阻力，创业就会减少。实际上，世界上大多数人都在为小企业工作，具体比例视地区而定，在60%到80%之间。所以这似乎是一个非常相符的使命。我们将最大限度地促进创业，给人们独立、逃离苦差事、掌控自己生活的机会。这是非常有力量的。

But somewhere along the way, you had to write this memo, incredible memo, we are a team and not a family because somewhere along the way, your team got distracted from that mission. Can you talk about what happened in that moment and why you had to do it and what it's like afterwards? You were kind of about that.

但是在某个时刻，你不得不写下这份备忘录，简直让人难以置信的备忘录，我们是一个团队而不是家庭，因为在某个时刻，你的团队偏离了这个使命。你能谈谈在那个时刻发生了什么，为什么你不得不这么做，以及之后的感受吗？关于这个问题，你有一些想说的。

I, it's an internally memo that I wrote that leaked and apparently struck a chord with a lot of people. I think that was actually leaked in a, in package as a cancellation attempt on me, which I think Backfire is really gratifying. And, and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and around me and definitely disagreeing with literally every proposed way to go about it and solving it. And so, you know, there was a lot of distraction and Shopify is over-seen itself. That's also cancelled term common carrier, where it had Elizabeth Warren selling marks selling billionaires, tears on them, and Trump on the other side selling whatever Trump was selling. And I like that. That's a big tent company. That's exactly what you want, right? Because it's a weird idea to segment the internet into these various components.

这是我写的一份内部备忘录，不过被泄露出去了，显然触动了很多人。我认为这实际上是有人故意泄露出来，试图对我进行抹黑，而这种反过来的效果真是令人满意。而且，还有很多人围绕着我都在反对每一种提出的解决方法。所以，你知道的，有很多干扰，并且Shopify也在自我监管。它还被称为"公共运营商"的取消术语，其中有伊丽莎白·沃伦在这些运营商上销售亿万富翁的眼泪，而特朗普在另一边销售他想卖的东西。我喜欢这样的公司，这是一个大伞公司，这正是你想要的，对吧？因为把互联网分割成各种组件是一个奇怪的想法。

And so, then there was another thing that happened, another thing, and we had obi-slack channels go way past self-healing, and it ended up becoming this incredible complexity. At which point, I wanted to remind everyone, hey, we're trying to cause a particular thing for people to reach for independence. It's really not for us to pre-select here. Like, let people, as long as they do something legal, we support them. And in fact, we are just pushing them behind the tool. Like, your screwdriver is not going to tell you that you can't screw in something into a wall because you're a Republican voter. So, like, it's just like, simplify this whole goddamn thing and just say, like, hey, we're showing up to make this the build cool shit. We'd be filling out parts of giving us shit. But like.

然后，又发生了另一件事情，另一件事情，我们的 obi-slack 频道远远超出了自我修复的范畴，变得异常复杂。在那时，我想提醒大家，嘿，我们试图引导人们获得独立性，这真的不是我们来进行预选的。只要他们做的是合法的事情，我们就支持他们。事实上，我们只是在推动他们使用工具。就像你的螺丝刀不会因为你是共和党选民就告诉你不能将东西拧进墙壁一样。所以，简化整个该死的事情，只要说，嘿，我们来展示如何打造酷炫的东西。至于其他烦琐的事情，我们无所谓。

As part of that principle, you mentioned LVMH before. I actually, if I look and compare your business to LVMH, which I've done, I actually think it's quite similar. Because if you talk to Bernard Arnow and you see the infrastructure of what they've built and the abstractions, you've done that. It's just you're 40 years separated and you're technological and they're much more procedural, but they do the same things, which they plug in these great businesses, they empower them to run, et cetera. Have you ever been tempted to more vertically integrate and like you see categories and you think to yourself, wow, maybe we could do more, we could enable this or we could lower costs even further or we could, you know, if we own this kind of a business, we could build logistics for everybody. I mean, you kind of tried to do it a little bit. Explain that journey.

作为原则的一部分，您之前提到了LVMH。实际上，如果我将您的业务与LVMH进行比较，我认为它们非常相似。因为如果您与伯纳德·阿诺沃对话并了解他们所建立的基础设施和抽象层，您也做到了这一点。只是您们相隔了40年，您们技术上更先进，而他们更加程序化，但他们做的是同样的事情，他们吸纳这些优秀的企业，赋予它们运营的能力等等。您是否曾经有过更多垂直整合的诱惑，比如看着某些类别，您会想，哇，也许我们可以做更多的事情，我们可以提供更多的支持，甚至我们可以进一步降低成本，或者如果我们拥有这样一种业务，我们可以为所有人建立物流。我意思是，您曾试图过一小段时间。请解释一下这个过程。

The decision is obvious, like, can we make it easier for other people to look amazing? It's not our job to be the front. I mean, if it's the quip of my investors who are almost all Americans, it was obvious like only Canadians can build this company because you're trying to be nowhere. You're doing it to an executive opposite. Make other people look good. And so that's pretty deeply ingrained. That's called the NTGA helping. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so now I mean, I don't want to do Shopify Basics or something like this, but it would be totally a side quest for us and I'm big on main quest. So I want to keep things.

这个决定很明显，比如，我们能不能让其他人更容易地变得出色？我们的工作不是出风头。我是说，如果我的投资者几乎都是美国人，很显然只有加拿大人才能建立这家公司，因为你们试图处处匿名。你们是在为高管对立方变得更好而努力。使其他人显得很棒。所以这一点根深蒂固。这被称为NTGA的帮助。嗯，是的，是的。所以现在我是说，我不想做Shopify Basics或者类似的东西，但这对我们来说完全是一个次要任务，我重视主要任务。所以我想保持事情现状。

You bought Deliver, but a week ago when Flexboard Fire, their CEO, you sold Deliver to Flexboard and then the same day, which is fucking boss, you signed a deal with Amazon. That's not what I was pretending to. Although that's how it was portrayed was a covariance. Can you just rather have a conspiracy theory tweet that went viral on this that it was all a plan of Bezos and he put the guy in to run Flexboard to get this deal done and then jettisoned out and totally crippled. I give him my highest recommendation. He's a wonderful man.

你曾购买了Deliver，但就在一周前，当Flexboard的首席执行官Flexboard Fire出现时，你将Deliver卖给了Flexboard，而在同一天，你和亚马逊签订了协议，真是个恶心的老板。这不是我所期望的。尽管事情被描述成了一个相关性，但你宁愿相信一个关于这一切都是贝索斯的阴谋论推文，他把这个人安排在Flexboard运营并完成了这笔交易，然后把他扔掉并彻底摧毁了。我极力推荐他，他是个了不起的人。

You should have a CEO. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I think people, conspiracy theory talk is really, really fun, but I think people massively underestimate how hard they are to execute.

你应该有一位首席执行官。很棒啊。是的，我的意思是，我认为人们对于阴谋论的讨论确实非常有趣，但是他们普遍低估了其执行的困难程度。

I like this, sounds very, very educated. No, like the, again, here's what my friends who build a lot of free companies on Shopify say. They say it's like most fun, like they treat it as a video game. Many of like do it over and over and over again and I want them to keep building these businesses and they turn, but they flip them or they stop at certain point.

我喜欢这个，听起来非常非常有见识。不是这样，再说一遍，这是我那些在Shopify上建立许多自由公司的朋友们所说的。他们说这像是最有趣的事情，就像他们在玩视频游戏一样对待它。很多人一遍又一遍地这样做，我希望他们继续建立这些企业并将其转换或在某个点停止。

Why is all the same? At some point they are getting to the point where like, okay, the next two years of my life I'm going to build warehouses and deal with operational excellence and I make online stores. I make products. I make business what I want to do. So I'm like, okay, cool. Like Shopify is big. I'm going to pull the complexity of figuring out logistics into Shopify because then I can amortize it over the total millions of stores that exist. That was a plan. We bootstrapped it, but like we can't run it in the end. So this is like an event to Flexport because that's their main quest and I think that's all totally okay. I'm super profound at surrounding their companies. I think that's why I'm celebrating that Ryan is coming back and also Ryan is totally fucking awesome.

为什么都是一样的？在某一点上，他们达到了一个这样的境地，就像，好吧，我接下来的两年将建造仓库，处理运营卓越，并制作在线商店。我制造产品。我构建自己的企业。所以我就说，好吧，Shopify很大。我将物流复杂性引入Shopify，因为这样我可以将其分摊到现有的数百万家店铺中。这是个计划。我们自己创业了，但最终我们无法运作它。所以对于Flexport来说，这就像一个事件，因为那是他们的主要任务，我认为这完全没有问题。我非常热衷于支持他们的公司。这就是为什么我为Ryan的回归感到兴奋，并且Ryan也非常令人敬佩。

Why did you do the deal with Amazon? The deal with Amazon is mostly about by the prime. But look, a lot of us made out of Shopify challenging Amazon story and it's a good story. But maybe this is a bit about me. I'm a product. I'm not a product of business school. I'm an engineer. I'm a blue collar engineer. I'm a programmer in Germany. I had a Meister. I could have gone for a tournament trip town to town doing this European thing. I grew up for open source. It's positive sum. It's not fighting for percentage points. We can build so much more if we work together.

为什么你选择和亚马逊达成交易？和亚马逊的交易主要是关于Prime会员。但是看看，我们很多人都以Shopify挑战亚马逊的故事为豪，并且这是一个很好的故事。但也许这更多地关乎我个人。我是一个产品。我不是商学院的产品。我是一名工程师。我是一名蓝领工程师。我是德国的一名程序员。我有一个大师。我本可以走遍欧洲的各个城镇参加比赛。我对开源技术有着浓厚的兴趣。开源是积极增值的。我们不是为了争夺利润百分点而战斗。如果我们共同努力，我们可以做得更多。

Specifically around prime, prime is a credible brand. It's probably a better brand than Amazon in some cases. There is a plausible future in which the purchases of buyers, as we call it, just want to buy everything through prime because that's the trusted brand. I think it would be very bad for my company and I think a lot of my customers, if they would have to fire Shopify just because their customers ask them to provide Amazon by the prime services. It's much better to work with them. In that way, you look at Amazon prime as Visa or something. It's just a technology. It's a club of users. Shopify supports 86 different payment gateways. I wrote 42 of integrations myself. I'm curious how you do look at Amazon as a competitor and your advice to this entrepreneur class of how they, knowing what you know, should engage with Amazon.

特别是在prime方面，prime是一个可信赖的品牌。在某些情况下，它可能比亚马逊更好。有一个可能的未来，购买者（我们称之为购买者）只想通过prime购买一切，因为那是一个可信赖的品牌。我认为，如果他们不得不解雇Shopify只是因为他们的客户要求提供亚马逊的prime服务，这对我的公司和许多客户来说将是非常糟糕的。与其如此，与他们合作会好得多。在这一点上，你可以把Amazon Prime看作是Visa之类的东西。它只是一个技术。这是一个用户俱乐部。Shopify支持86种不同的支付网关。我自己编写了42个集成。我很想知道您如何将亚马逊视为竞争对手，并向这些企业家提供建议，让他们根据您的知识与亚马逊合作。

There has been a lot of hand-wringing. We see it with the FTC and Lena Kahn's obsession with Amazon and third party fulfillment and Amazon house brands. You referenced Amazon basics. You just said basics, but obviously that's what you're referring to. What is your analysis of is it in the best interest of a shop to put their inventory on Amazon knowing the Amazon is kind of like the Borg. They will study your product. They will grind you down. They will lower the price. Then the coral area to that in part two.

曾经有很多人担心。我们可以在联邦贸易委员会和莉娜·卡恩对亚马逊、第三方履约和亚马逊自有品牌的痴迷中看到这一点。你刚刚提到了亚马逊的基础产品。你只说了"基础产品"，但显然你指的是这个。对于商家来说，将他们的库存放在亚马逊上是否符合他们的最佳利益呢？毕竟，亚马逊有点像博格人（《星际迷航》中一种虚拟集体智慧）。他们会研究你的产品。他们会削价。那么，请谈谈你对此的分析，即第二部分。

What are you seeing in consumer thinking? As we watched every single product get copied so quickly, fast fashion or fast gadgets, everything gets copied. What I myself and a lot of other people doing now is retreating to brands and you mention trust. Is there now the pendulum swinging to, I'm not trying to find the lowest price and the cheapest product. I actually want a brand that I can trust. Some people are wearing a certain brand of shoes here that they really like. Maybe you could talk about those even. It's name, Jason. Laura Pianna. I have a pair now. They are buttery. I literally put them on and I was like, I don't know if I deserve these. How do you get myself back up for wearing $1,200 slippers? Apparently these guys don't care. They are like, I know I know you are the richest guy on the stage and you are wearing $16 shoes and you guys are wearing $1,200 shoes. I think that's why you are the richest guy on the stage.

你在消费者的思维方式中看到了什么？当我们看到每一样产品都被迅速复制时，如快时尚或快速电子产品，所有东西都被抄袭。我自己和很多其他人现在正在转向品牌，你提到了信任。现在是否有一个摇摆的钟摆，我不再试图找到最低价和最便宜的产品。实际上，我想要一个可信赖的品牌。这里有些人穿着一种他们真的喜欢的鞋子品牌。也许你可以谈谈这些品牌。它的名字是Jason. Laura Pianna. 我现在拥有一双。它们非常柔软。我刚穿上它们，就想，我不知道我是否值得拥有它们。怎么才能让自己为穿着1200美元的拖鞋而振作起来呢？显然这些人不在乎。他们说，我知道你是台上最富有的人，你穿着16美元的鞋子，而你们穿着1200美元的鞋子。我想这就是你成为最富有的人的原因。

Let's talk about Amazon. I'm Amazon first, look, I'm Amazon's like, everyone should study the company. They are absolutely incredible. I again do not think about, I do not like thinking about who gets which percentage. I think it really messes with people's actual analysis of what they ought to be doing, especially entrepreneurs building in space. Amazon is a rival and rivals are there to inspire you to be better. If you treat anyone, if you compare it in a different way, I think you're causing a category mistake. Maybe in the more physical world, absolutely there's really a clear finite pie. Maybe you need to bring a different mindset, but if you're anywhere close to software, it's positive, so I'm everything's growing. I think that's, I would say about Amazon.

让我们谈谈亚马逊。我是亚马逊的忠实拥趸，看看，我就是亚马逊的粉丝，每个人都应该学习这家公司。他们真是令人难以置信。我对于谁获得多少百分比并不考虑，我不喜欢考虑这个，因为我认为这会干扰人们对应该做什么的真正分析，尤其是那些在这个领域建立起来的企业家。亚马逊是一个竞争对手，竞争对手的存在激励着你变得更好。如果你把任何人或事情拿来比较，并以不同的方式看待，我认为那是一个错误的分类。也许在物理世界中，确实有一个明确有限的蛋糕。也许你需要换一种思维方式，但如果你接近软件领域，势头是积极的，所以一切都在增长。我认为这就是我对亚马逊的看法。

You said that you have how many payment providers? It's 86. 86. Breakdown, stripe and ad-gen for a second. Why? Why? Why do 86 payment providers even exist? Yeah, that's an excellent question. And has to do with.

你说过你有多少个支付提供商？是86。86个。 稍微分解，stripe和ad-gen。 为什么？为什么还会有86个支付提供商存在？是的，这是个很好的问题。跟...有关。

Go back to your friction point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Byzantine world of entertainment. To regulatory and entertainment. So that's all just regulatory and entertainment. I mean, look, some of these payment gateways, I really hope my team disabled them. And I implemented them in 2004. Here's what you had to do is you had to take the credit card, put it into an Excel spreadsheet and upload it to an FTP site. So that's exactly as secure as you can imagine. But that's what's the state of the art at a certain point of time, as such as it is.

回到你的争议点上。是的，是的，是的。娱乐的拜占庭世界。 到监管和娱乐方面，所以只是监管和娱乐。 我的意思是，看，其中一些支付网关，我真希望我的团队已经将它们禁用了。而我在2004年实施了它们。你所需要做的是将信用卡放在Excel电子表格中，然后将其上传到FTP站点。 所以你可以想象，这实际上并不安全。但在某个特定时间点上，它就是当时的最先进技术。

I have very low. Maybe this is where my extraordinarily low opinion about the orthodoxy and the status core comes from. But it's stripe and alien and maybe to a. Sometimes brain-tree are much more competent implementations of this fundamental idea. And they're massively complex. Like, again, they're interchangeable because at the end of the day you can do a lot of what you need to do with free API codes. It's basically offerised capture and purchased directly. And so they look interchangeable, but what's happening behind. I mean, they're great businesses. They're great businesses. Specifically, yes.

我的评价很低。也许这就是我对正统和现状的极低看法的来源。但这是条纹和外来的，也许对于许多人来说，Brain-tree更能胜任这个基本思想的实现。它们非常复杂。就像我刚才说的，它们是可以互换的，因为在最后，您可以使用免费的API代码做很多您需要做的事情。 基本上，它们提供了捕获和直接购买的服务。所以它们看起来可互换，但实际上在幕后发生的是什么呢？ 我的意思是，它们是伟大的企业。它们是伟大的企业。 确切地说，是的。

Okay, so there's. But to be more leading to your commission, I think. You guys have shop. You know, all these things eventually are the things that these guys interact with. They're not going to know what's behind the scenes. They know that it's shop pays one click, it's elegant, it's amazing. I used it this weekend. Buy with Prime same kind of concept.

好的，所以有这样一个情况。但为了更有利于你们的佣金，我认为应该有一家店铺。你们知道，所有这些东西最终是这些人与之互动的东西。他们不会知道背后的内幕，他们只知道这个店铺一键支付，它优雅、令人赞叹。我上个周末用了它。类似于Prime购物的概念。

So what is it that you guys, you as a business, your shareholders will say, Toby, get as much margin as possible. And obviously you're going to look at that and say, well, hold on, if I'm running a trillion dollars over my network, 50 basis points, all of a sudden adds up to a lot of net income for me. So you're going to go and do it. That's like a no-brainer. What happens to those companies? What do they do where you would actually go back to your shareholders and say, ah, no, I'm going to pay more to these guys tomorrow than I do today because it's critical and I can't do it. Yeah.

那么你们作为一家企业，你们的股东会说什么呢？会说“Toby，尽可能获得更多的利润率。”当然，你会看到这个并且会说：“等等，如果我在我的网络上运营一万亿美元，0.5%的基点对我来说将会成为我大量的净收入。”所以你会这么做，这是显而易见的。那么这些公司会发生什么呢？在哪种情况下，你会真的回到你的股东面前，并且告诉他们：“噢，明天我要付给这些人比今天更多的钱，因为这是至关重要的，我必须这么做。” 是的。

Yeah, there's a lot more than me, sorry. Like honestly, we have to see companies go from one payment gate to another and everything about the business changes and they kind of don't know why. There's the card acceptance rate are really, really different between them. There's a huge amount of machine learning goes into like what at which point you want to accept which card performance is a huge one. Like this is sort of a really invisible one because like latency to compute or in the world of computing, it's sort of like pollution in the real world. It's like a negative externality sort of bestowed upon the next layer and other people. But like in e-commerce, you can just really see it. Like it's your sales are going to go down and it's usually, okay, a card gateway is that have the largest issue with performance and these kind of things that have to use basis points games to attract customers. So we've actually seen sets going down in this way, both stripe and add in excellent.

是的，除了我之外，还有很多事情，抱歉。老实说，我们必须看到公司从一个支付网关转向另一个支付网关，业务方方面面都会发生变化，而他们并不知道为什么。不同网关的信用卡批准率实际上是非常非常不同的。 在这种情况下，需要进行大量的机器学习，以确定在何时接受哪种卡片的性能最好。 这是一种非常隐形的情况，因为在计算领域中，计算延迟类似于现实世界中的污染。它就像是一种负的外部性，赋予下一层和其他人。但是在电子商务领域，你可以真正看到它的存在。 如果你的销售量下降了，通常是因为一些卡片网关的性能问题，这些问题需要使用基础点来吸引客户。 因此，我们实际上观察到了这种情况，无论是Stripe还是Addin。

That's also, I mean, if you're asking about what makes these businesses and do they have a fun job? I mean, they're building trust relationships to the brand question really with the CFO office, right? This in business software, just like consumer software, you know, attention matters or engagement as it's called usually. And you want to, like if you have a trust relationship, if a CFO of a company, you are going to be hired for more and more services and there's a lot of services related to the flow of funds.

这也是，我的意思是，如果你在问这些企业的特点是什么，他们是否有有趣的工作？ 我的意思是，他们正在与CFO办公室建立信任关系，对吗？ 在商业软件中，就像消费者软件一样，你知道注意力是很重要的，或者通常被称为参与度。 如果你有信任关系，作为一家公司的CFO，你将会被雇佣进行更多的服务，而且与资金流动有关的服务也有很多。

I think there's lots of opportunities just bringing it back because you're trying to make me commit about making a value-start statement that's kind of a zero-sum statement about two or three companies here. You have a lot of opportunity in this space. It's like there's a lot of fantastic new rails that are being built in a crypto world. We're not so cool on this right now, but soon we are going to be cool again because this is the way humanity works and then we get to build and there's some really, really good technology underneath it or which is quite ready. There's also, I mean, I don't know when the last time both the credit card network was created but certainly a long time ago and there's a good deal of business bringsmanship that's going on from that side and I think there's some opportunities to build together.

我认为有很多机会可以利用，因为你试图让我承认一种关于两三家公司的价值起始声明的零和说法。 在这个领域，你有很多机会。就像在加密货币世界中，有很多令人惊叹的新轨道正在建设。 我们现在对此并不太了解，但很快我们会重新看到其重要性，因为人类就是这样运作的，然后我们就可以建设起来，底下有一些非常非常优秀的技术，或者说准备就绪。 这里还有，我不知道上次信用卡网络是什么时候被创建的，但肯定是很久以前了，从那一方面有很多商业技巧，我认为有一些机会可以一起建立起来。

Tell us about what you're doing in AI. You launched a co-pilot. It's literally like anybody could become their own business person. It's really incredible. Do you want to talk about that for a little bit?

告诉我们你在人工智能方面的工作。你推出了一款协助驾驶的智能系统。这个系统实际上帮助任何人都能成为自己的商业人士，这一点真的很不可思议。你想花点时间来详细谈谈这个吗？

Every time. This is my favorite thing about Shopify other than the fact that we as a business sit on the same side of the table as the merchants, the partners, the best thing we can do for Shopify for our business model is actually make our customers more successful. It's an incredible simplifier and it's incredible how many businesses are actually really doing a fakery cosplay on top of a principal agent problem really. It's much simpler for us.

每次。这是我在Shopify除了我们作为一家企业与商家、合作伙伴站在同一边这一事实之外最喜欢的事情，我们为Shopify的商业模式所能做的最好的事情就是让我们的客户更成功。这是一种令人难以置信的简化，令人难以置信的是有多少企业实际上在一个代理人问题的顶层上进行伪装。对我们来说，这更简单。

The other thing that I'm so excited about because I only had that as a hope than I started but then it's proven out is that this thing I said about the friction in the process. Every single time we shipped something that reduced the friction by a meaningful amount, we actually had more successful business being built. So we really, really proved that out in the numbers. Great example is a payment gateway. Again, initially you had to make a choice. When I had to get my payment gateway for my snowboard store, I had to have two hour interview with someone in American Fork, Utah and then mail my passport to them. Not a copy. That's the friction that existed for just formation. Now it's like it's not a writing. Everyone just, the first time someone buys something, we tell you, hey, where is the money supposed to go? The amazing thing about AI is there's some problems we can't address with friction removal which is actually like the experience in life kind of thing.

我对另一件事情非常兴奋，因为一开始我只是抱着希望而已，但后来事实证明是真的。就是我之前提到过的流程中的摩擦问题。每次我们减少了摩擦的数量，我们实际上都有更多的成功业务产生。我们确实在数据中证明了这一点。一个很好的例子就是支付网关。最初，你必须做出选择。当我需要为我的滑雪板店选择支付网关时，我必须与美国尤他州的一个人进行两小时的面试，然后把我的护照寄给他们。不是复印件，而是实物。这只是一个形成过程中存在的摩擦。现在这已经不再是问题。每当有人购买东西时，我们只需告诉你，钱应该去哪里。人工智能的令人惊讶之处在于，有些问题我们无法通过减少摩擦来解决，这实际上是与生活体验相关的事情。

My grandmother had a printing press, a place, a copy shop, a fake letter presses and these kinds of things. I was like, as a kid, doing the lead, like, coding, like, typesetting, the actual old stuff, the firm was hugely impressive. She started this business. So I had, in my film there, the concept of starting your business is a plausible solution to problems you might encounter in your life. That's probably true for most of the people you talk about in the entrepreneur realm, but they have this experience. That's just, I mean, this is what's so good that your podcast and just society talks more about this being a possibility, but still people can't see themselves in it. If they do, often they do it in a sort of reach via desperation. Plan B for so many people on the other earth is better than Plan A. It's one, it's because they have learned to downgrade. They've made the switch at some point. That's fantastic. But many, many people reach risk, I think, maybe is-

我的奶奶有一台印刷机、一家印刷店、一些仿制的印字机以及其他一些设备。当我还是个孩子时，我参与其中，像是负责铅字、编码、排版等工作，这些都是古老的行当，非常令人印象深刻。她是这个行业的创业者。所以，在我的电影中，我提出了一个观念，即创业是解决生活中遇到的问题的一个可行选择。这对于大多数你提到的企业家来说可能是真实的，但他们有这种经验。这就是为什么你的播客和社会对此进行更多讨论是如此重要，但人们仍然无法看到自己的可能性。即使他们能够看到，往往是出于绝望的目的。对于地球上的许多人来说，B计划比A计划更好，因为他们已经学会了降低期望。他们在某个时候做出了转变，这真是太好了。但很多人，我想，承担了风险。

Exactly. Yeah, people's default setting and it worked for surviving on the planet, but maybe it doesn't work for the modern era and taking risk is more bold. So what does the co-pilot do? Well, hopefully it helps you with courage. It maintains your courage because you courageously reach for, like, I'm going to try this thing in my lunch break. But here's someone, like VB survey people, the successful stores tend to, I think, with 85% answer that you had someone who would turn a text in 24 hours with a question about starting a business. It's massive predictor of success.

确实。是的，人们的默认设置在生存于这个星球上是有效的，但也许在现代社会中并不适用，冒险更加大胆。那么副驾驶员的作用是什么呢？ 嗯，希望它能让你勇敢一点。它维持你的勇气，因为你勇敢地尝试着，比如在午休时间我要试试这个东西。但有人，像VB调查的人们，成功的店铺往往有85%的人回答说，有人会在24小时内回复问题有关创业。这是一个巨大的成功预测因素。

So I think what chat boards are already good at is like being patient and competent and answering your questions. There's a lot of questions they can't answer because there's, you know, just not the training set isn't ideal for niche pursuits such as e-commerce entrepreneurship, but that's something we can fix through, you know, wonders of fine-truining and these kind of things.

我认为聊天板块已经很擅长耐心且能胜任地回答你的问题。有很多问题他们无法回答，这是因为对于像电子商务创业这样的小众领域来说，培训样本并不理想。但这是我们可以通过精确训练和其他方式来解决的问题。

And so what does it do? VBonded to be like just like someone who sits next to you basically is like a chat you can ask questions about business, but like if you say, hey, I need my store to like look more like summer rather than fall or whatever. Now it will be able to help you with that and it will ask you questions. If you ask it to like what should I do in terms of product discovery or how can I increase sales, I saw on the demo it would say, hey, you should put these things on the front page and you may want to do this type of sale.

那它具体能做什么呢？VBonded 就像是坐在你旁边的一位人，基本上就像是一次聊天，你可以提出关于业务的问题。比如说，如果你说：“嗨，我希望我的店铺看起来更夏天一些，而不是秋天或其他季节。”现在它就能帮你解决这个问题，并且会问你一些相关问题。如果你询问它关于产品发现或如何增加销售的问题，我在演示中看到它会告诉你：“嘿，你应该把这些东西放在首页，并且你可能想做这种类型的促销。”

Yes. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. It's pretty amazing. It's honestly, I mean, sometimes it's unbelievably dumb. That's kind of all Shopify data not just that user, right? So there's a clear aggregation effect. That's why we'll affect the world.

是的。是的。它非常令人惊奇。真的非常令人惊奇。老实说，有时候它令人难以置信的愚蠢。这不仅仅是针对该用户的数据，而是整个Shopify数据。因此存在明显的聚合效应。这就是为什么我们能够影响世界的原因。

You do. I'm always interested in the really outlier founders because they do business differently. They learn different tasks and different ways of managing people and we didn't get into it with Ray, but man, Bridgewater has a whole operating system of how they record people. It's very impressive. It's very intense.

你可以。我总是对那些真正与众不同的创始人感兴趣，因为他们经营业务的方式不同。他们学习不同的任务和管理人员的方式，我们没有详细讨论这一点，但是Bridgewater有一个完整的人员记录操作系统，非常令人印象深刻，也非常强大。

You have a very interesting one where you released and it went viral a counter. So when you make a meeting, it tells you how much that meeting cost. And then you demanded everybody justify the cost of the meetings. I don't know if you're making them account for it on their budgets or not yet, but this resonated to hit a chord.

你有一个非常有趣的方法，你发布了一个计数器，它立即在网络上走红。因此，当你进行会议时，它会告诉你这次会议的费用。然后你要求每个人对会议费用进行理由解释。我不知道你是否已经在他们的预算中要求他们负责这笔费用，但是这个举动引起了共鸣，触动了某根弦。

Looking at the success of the company, what are the two or three operating principles like the, I would say, a no meeting culture or a meeting if it's really essential culture? But what are the other two or three things that now when you look for running this company and getting it to the next level, which is going to be harder and harder, this is how we operate at Toby's Shopify.

看着公司的成功，像没有会议的企业文化或只召开必要会议的企业文化这样的两三个经营原则是什么？但是，当你寻求运营这家公司并将其推向下一个更高水平时，这将变得越来越困难，我们在Toby's Shopify的运营方式是怎样的呢？

Yeah, I take the founder role very seriously. I again, it's not about me, but it's like, I think companies that have, like, there is a founder slot which might be filled not in every company because they have a company who had found it. If the founder slot is filled, you have incredible ability to change the company, partly because the way I always loved social capital as a concept, and I think a lot about it, to me this is like a bank account, right? It's a balance that's deposited and the way any kind of value is deposited into it comes from storytelling. And the founding story is ever present in a company, therefore there is daily settlements into the account or accruing to a founder. And if a founder is not there anymore, it's sort of like someone deleted the private key and you can't spend it anymore.

是的，我非常认真对待创始人的角色。我再说一次，这与我个人无关，但是我认为有些公司存在一个创始人的职位，而不是每个公司都有创始人，因为他们有一个创始人。如果创始人的职位被填补了，你就有了改变公司的能力，部分原因是因为我一直喜欢社会资本这个概念，并且我对此有很多想法。对我来说，这就像是一个银行账户的平衡，里面存放着价值，而任何价值都来源于故事。创始故事在公司中始终存在，因此每天都有资金存入创始人的账户，或者积累到创始人的身上。如果创始人不在了，就好像有人删除了私钥，你就不能再使用这些资金了。

So what am I spending it on? I want Shopify to be a company that is, well, first of all, it's really, really great for crafters. I, again, I apprentice, it's blue collar and approach engineering. This should be a crafters paradise and we just really, really, really make sure we have great teams and great environments for crafters to do their craft. And that's usually very small teams and so on.

那么我会将它花在什么上？首先，我希望Shopify成为一个非常非常适合手工工艺者的公司。我再次强调，我们重视蓝领和工程师的学徒制度。这里应该是手工工艺者的天堂，我们会确保为他们提供优秀的团队和良好的工作环境。通常这种工作是由非常小的团队完成的。

There's a huge amount of anti-status quo bias. Like, it is just like, man, like the world is not that great. All companies are terrible. The only thing any of us gets to hope for is that at the end of our careers, we're going to look at the companies we built in 2020 and beyond or before and say, my company was slightly less terrible than other companies. That's the best anyone can do. To me, that's actually a helpful message because that reduces the complexity of the task. That's something I can do, just being slightly less terrible.

有一种非常强烈的反现状偏见。就像，嘿，世界并不那么美好。所有的公司都很糟糕。我们唯一能希望的就是，在我们的职业生涯结束时，我们会看着我们在2020年及以后或之前创建的公司，说：“我的公司比其他公司稍微好一点。”那是我们能做到的最好的了。对我来说，这实际上是个有帮助的信息，因为它减少了任务的复杂性。这是我可以做到的，只是稍微比原先糟糕一点点。

But the key thing is subtraction and this is where the founder slots energy comes from. It seems to me that it's only founders who subtract in companies. This is the meeting thing in a nutshell.

但关键是减法运算，这就是创始人激情的来源。在我看来，只有创始人在公司中进行减法操作。这才是会议要点的精髓。

Everyone adds recurring meetings and gums of the system. I'm super pro great meetings but once every couple of year and a half or so, we randomly delete all recurring meetings. We're actually going to do random deletion of Slack channels and all these kind of things. Because they will come back if they're useful. So I think that gives you a sense. I don't think I have time for dissertation.

大家都会添加定期会议和系统的碎片。我非常支持好的会议，但每隔一年半的时候，我们会随机删除所有的定期会议。实际上，我们还会随机删除Slack频道和其他类似的内容。如果它们有用的话，它们会重新出现。所以我认为这能让你有一个概念。我觉得我没有时间写论文了。

But again, it's super fun building companies. It's a really, really fun thing to do and taking it seriously is best I'll find it. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

但是，再说一次，创办公司是非常有趣的。这是一件真的、真的非常有趣的事情，认真对待它是我能找到的最好的方式。女士们先生们，我想说声谢谢。谢谢。谢谢。

Questions, comments, comments, questions, comments questions glad you're still here on a serversothery. I'm a little person, that's my dog taking a picture of you. I wish you a driveway.

问题，评论，评论，问题，评论，问题，很高兴你还在一个服务器上。我是一个小人，照片上是我的狗。我希望你有一条车道。

Send text, write it off. Oh man, I have a casual media place. We should all just get a room and have one big huge order because they're all just like this like sexual tension that we just need to release that house.

发送文本，将其忘记。哦，天啊，我有一个随意的媒体场所。我们应该都去一个房间，一次性地进行大量订购，因为它们都像这样存在着性紧张感，我们只需要释放掉那种压抑的情绪。

What? You're the big. What? You're the big. You're a big. You're a big. What? We need to get murrayed. I'm going all this. I'm going all this.

什么？你是大的。什么？你是大的。你是一个大的。你是一个大的。什么？我们需要结婚。我会全程参与。我会全程参与。