Netanyahu delays legal reforms after strikes
发布时间 2023-03-27 21:45:00 来源
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Hello, welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service. We're coming to you live from London. My name is Paul Henley. On the programme today, Israel's Prime Minister backs down in the face of mass protests and delays his controversial plans for judicial reform. We'll speak to one of the protesters and we'll ask if his coalition can now hold together.
大家好，欢迎收听来自BBC国际新闻频道的 NewsHour，我是保罗·亨利，现在直播节目来自伦敦。今天节目的主题是：面对大规模抗议，以色列总理撤回了有争议的司法改革计划。我们将采访其中一位抗议者，并询问以色列政府联盟是否能够继续维持团结。
Also coming up, there's been another shooting at a school in the US this time in Nashville, Tennessee. The first lady, Jill Biden, reacts.
接下来，美国田纳西州的一所学校再次发生了枪击事件。第一夫人吉尔·拜登做出了回应。
While you've been in this room, I don't know whether you've been on your phones, but we just learned about another shooting in Tennessee, a school shooting. And I am truly without words. And our children deserve better. And we stand all of us. We stand with Nashville in prayer.
在你待在这个房间的时候，我不知道你是否一直在用手机，但我们刚刚听到了田纳西州又发生了一起枪击案，是在学校发生的。我真的无言以对。我们的孩子应该得到更好的保护。我们所有人都站在一起，为纳什维尔祈祷。
Also, still to come, it's a new school term in Afghanistan. We'll hear from some of the girls who will not be allowed to attend lessons. That's all a bit later.
此外，阿富汗的新学期即将开始。我们接下来将听取一些女孩的发言，她们将无法参加课程。稍后再详细讨论。
The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has announced that he'll delay judicial reforms that of course the biggest wave of public protest in his country's history. In a televised speech to the nation this evening prompted by political opposition, strikes and widespread street demonstrations. Mr. Netanyahu said he wasn't willing to tear the nation apart for the sake of his reforms yet.
以色列总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡宣布将推迟司法改革，这引发了该国历史上最大规模的公众抗议浪潮。今晚在政治反对、罢工和广泛的街头示威的推动下，他在全国电视讲话中表示，他不愿为了他的改革而撕裂国家。
The controversial plans, which drastically limit the independence of Israel's courts, have divided Israelis with opponents accusing the Prime Minister of behaving like a dictator. His action today means at least a month's delay to the changes.
备受争议的计划极大地限制了以色列法院的独立性，这让以色列人感到分裂，反对者指责总理行事像独裁者。他今天的行动意味着至少推迟了一个月的改变。
Public protests that the reforms have been going on for several weeks, tens of thousands of marched, roads and the main airport have had to be closed. Unions have threatened a general strike and army reservists threatened to refuse to serve. Today's demonstrations were as vehement as ever.
公共抗议表明改革已经进行了数周，成千上万的人走上街头，道路和主要机场不得不关闭。工会威胁要发动总罢工，陆军预备役也威胁拒绝服役。今天的示威与以往一样激烈。
This is Hila Mosehavi protesting in Jerusalem saying women will be most affected.
这是Hila Mosehavi在耶路撒冷抗议，她说女性将受到最严重的影响。
The first people that will be hurt when our democracy becomes a dictatorship in Israel will be the women because they want to expand for example the authority of the religious courts. And religious courts have no regards for women, none whatsoever. I believe in the Israeli people. I believe in courts. I believe people will choose the right thing if they'll have to choose between obeying their dictator and obeying the law. That's what I believe.
当我们的以色列民主变成独裁政权时，首先受到伤害的将是女性，因为她们想要扩大宗教法院的权力。而宗教法院毫不尊重女性。我相信以色列人民，我相信法院。如果人民必须在服从独裁者和服从法律之间做出选择，我相信他们会做出正确的选择。这就是我的信仰。
But Mr Netanyahu's far right allies have been demonstrating too in favor of the reforms. The finance minister Beza-Lel Smotrich was attending a rally before the Prime Minister spoke and he urged his supporters to join him.
但是，内塔尼亚胡先生的极右翼盟友也在支持改革方面进行了示威。财政部长贝扎-勒尔·斯莫特里奇在总理讲话前参加了游行，并敦促他的支持者加入他。
Friends, we must not halt the reform that aims to repair the judicial system and reinforce Israeli democracy. We are the majority. We must not capitulate in the face of violence, anarchy, the refusal to serve in the armed forces and the wild strikes. We are the majority. Let's make our voice heard. Let's get together tonight. In front of the Knesset, I'll be there come as well. We won't let them steal our voice or our country.
朋友们，我们不能停止旨在修复司法系统、强化以色列民主的改革。我们是多数人。在暴力、无政府状态、拒绝服兵役和疯狂罢工面前，我们不能屈服。我们是多数人。让我们发出我们的声音。让我们今晚聚在一起。在议会大厦前，我会在那里，你也来吧。我们不会让他们偷走我们的声音或我们的国家。
Well, I asked the BBC's Anna Foster who's in Jerusalem. How much of a climb down this was by the Israeli Prime Minister?
嗯，我问了在耶路撒冷的BBC的安娜·福斯特。以色列总理这次是多么大的退让？
It is not what he wanted to do and he made it clear just a few days ago that he was going to try and push this legislation through along with his right-wing nationalist coalition partners. He did not want to pause at this stage. The current Knesset session ends at the end of this week before Passover and he really did have ambitions to get this legislation through before then.
他不想这样做，就在几天前他明确表示他将试图与他的右翼民族主义联盟合作推动这项立法。他不想在这个阶段暂停。现在的议会会议在逾越节前的本周末结束，他真的有雄心壮志在那之前通过这项立法。
What he has had to do is pause but this is really crucial. The vocabulary that's being used here is important because what the demonstrators wanted was a wholesale scrapping of this legislation. A pause, a halt, a freeze, whatever you may call it was not what they had in mind.
他所必须要做的是暂停，这非常关键。这里使用的词汇非常重要，因为示威者想要的是彻底废除这项法规。暂停、停顿、冻结，无论你如何称呼它，都不是他们所想要的。
Now, Israeli opposition leaders have said that they will take this period of time to engage in fresh dialogue, that they will speak to Benjamin Netanyahu about this. What we don't know is what is likely to change in that time. Everybody, I think, across the spectrum have made their various feelings about this legislation felt and it's hard to really know what might change between now and then. We haven't been given any detail of that just yet. All we know is that this timeline has been extended for a few weeks at least.
现在，以色列反对派领导人表示，他们将利用这段时间进行新的对话，并与本杰明·内塔尼亚胡谈谈这个问题。我们不知道这段时间里可能会发生什么变化。我认为，大家都对这项立法表达了各种不同的感受，很难真正知道现在和那时之间可能会有什么不同。目前为止，我们还没有得到任何详细的信息。我们只知道这个时间表至少延长了几周。
Before we talk about the implications of that, I've outlined in a sentence of two what the proposed reforms are. Can you elaborate? Essentially, what it does is it changes the balance of power within the Israeli state. In any democracy, you have those checks and balances and different pillars that make sure that the balance is there, that neither one of them takes too much power and can have a really undue level of influence over the state.
在我们谈论这个问题的影响之前，我简要概述一下这些提议改革是什么。你可以具体说明一下吗？基本上，它改变了以色列国内的权力平衡。在任何民主国家中，都有各种监督和平衡机制，确保没有一个机构过于强大，对国家有过度的影响。
What is being suggested here is that the government would be able to do things like appoint judges, that the government would be able to strike down decisions that were made in Israel's Supreme Court. What that does is concentrate a lot of power in the hands of the government taking it away from the judiciary. It really unbalances that democracy. Many of those protesters, I was in a crowd with them at two o'clock this morning outside the Kinesutan democracy, democracy, along with shame, are two of the things you will hear them chant the most because they really feel that this plan is eroding Israel's democracy. Benjamin Netanyahu, on the other hand, says that it's important that these balances happen and he says he is restoring the balance, not throwing it off kilter.
在这里建议的是政府将能够做出任命法官等决定，并能够撤销以色列最高法院作出的决定。那样做会将大量权力集中在政府手中，从司法机构手中剥夺权力。这真的会破坏民主制度。许多抗议者，我昨晚两点钟在民主广场的人群中与他们在一起，他们最常高喊的口号是“民主，民主”以及“羞耻”，因为他们真的觉得这个计划正在侵蚀以色列的民主制度。另一方面，本杰明·内塔尼亚胡表示，这些平衡是重要的，并称他正在恢复平衡，而不是使其失衡。
So the Prime Minister doesn't want what the Israeli President said could amount to a civil war. He doesn't want his ruling coalition to break up either. What does chances do you think of keeping both sides happy with this holding pattern? He's really got a tightrope to walk.
所以，总理不想让以色列总统所说的可能导致内战的话成为现实。他也不想让执政联盟瓦解。你认为他保持这种暂时状态时，两方面的机会有多大呢？他确实要走一条绷紧的绳索。
I mean, I think the reason that he has come out with this sticking past a solution tonight, rather than something which actually solves the problem once and for all, demonstrates how difficult it's going to be to try and please both sides. Now, in terms of his right-wing coalition partners, the Jewish power party in Itamar Ben Gaviha, the National Security Minister, said tonight that they have been promised a new national guard that Itamar Ben Gaviha would run.
我的意思是，我认为他今晚提出这个勉强解决问题的方案，而不是真正解决问题的方案，这表明试图取悦双方有多么困难。现在，就他的右翼联盟伙伴而言，Itamar Ben Gaviha的犹太权力党的国家安全部长今晚表示，他们已经被承诺将建立一个由Itamar Ben Gaviha领导的新国民警卫队。
So it seems that Benjamin Netanyahu has tried to bring in a degree of trading. I've said, look, we can't do this, but what about this? You know, he knows he needs to keep those coalition partners on side. Otherwise, he does not have enough MK's with him. He does not have a ruling majority and ultimately he loses power. So he knows he has to keep them on side.
看起来，本杰明·内塔尼亚胡试图引入一定程度的贸易。我说过，看看这个吧，我们不能这么做，但这个怎么样？他知道他需要让那些联盟伙伴站在他这边。否则，他没有足够的议员支持。他没有执政多数派，最终他失去了权力。所以他知道他必须让他们站在他这一边。
But equally, if you look at the sheer disruption in Israeli society today, that strike that saw shops and banks close, the airport ports, hospitals saying they would only treat emergency patients. It really came to a head tonight. Benjamin Netanyahu had to act, but what he's done is delayed this problem, rather than solving it.
但同样，在看看今天以色列社会所面临的巨大混乱，那场罢工导致商店和银行关闭，机场和港口也关闭，医院声称只会治疗急诊病人。这真的在今晚爆发了。本杰明·内塔尼亚胡不得不采取行动，但他所做的只是推迟了这个问题，而不是解决它。
The BBC's Anna Foster in Jerusalem. Dove Lavin Glick has been attending the protest for all 12 weeks now? He was at one of the gatherings in Jerusalem today. I asked him what the mood had been like.
BBC的Anna Foster在耶路撒冷报道，Dove Lavin Glick已经连续12周参加抗议活动了。他今天在耶路撒冷的一个集会上。我问他气氛如何。
The mood is anxious. People are extremely nervous that Israel's democracy as Anna stated is at risk. And what gave way to the latest outbreak is Netanyahu's firing or promising to fire the Minister of Defense, Mr. Gallant, because the minister gave Netanyahu news that Netanyahu did not appreciate. Instead of taking the news at face value that Israel's defense forces are on the decline, that people are not willing to show up to serve what is for all intents and purposes and upcoming dictatorship. Netanyahu said, you know what? I do not want to, I do not want to hear this news. I'm going to fire the Minister to the protesters who went out in Deroves yesterday, approximately 700,000 people. That was it. That was it.
目前的情绪很焦虑。正如安娜所说，人们非常紧张，以色列的民主面临风险。最近爆发的导火索是内塔尼亚胡开除或承诺开除国防部长加兰特先生，因为部长向内塔尼亚胡传达了他并不欣赏的消息。内塔尼亚胡并没有接受这个消息的真实价值，即以色列的防御力量正在下降，人们不愿意服从即将到来的独裁统治。他说，你知道吗？我不想听这个消息。我要开除这位部长。昨天在德罗夫斯举行的抗议者约有70万人，这就是导火索。
Now Mr. Netanyahu has now paused his legislation. He hasn't cancelled it. We appreciate that. But he scored a first victory, surely, with the union saying there will be no general strike for now, at least those progress from his point of view.
现在内塔尼亚胡先生已经暂停了他的立法。他还没有取消它。我们感激这一点。但是，他已经取得了第一次胜利，工会表示暂时不会进行全国性罢工，至少从他的角度来看取得了进展。
So let me take those two points that you raised. Number one, the union said that they were going on strike until something happened. Something happened. Netanyahu said that he would, that he would pause the legislation, which brings us to the second point, which is Netanyahu really had no, had no choice. As Anna correctly stated, the Knesset, the parliament, Israeli parliament is going on, it's on its spring break at the end of the week. And whatever legislation could not be passed through during this week, simply would have to be by necessity, postponed to the next seeding of the Knesset. Netanyahu did not have the majority. So he spun it as though he gave up on passing the legislation, but he really didn't. In the meantime, there will be room for negotiation.
好的，让我谈一下你提到的两个点。第一，工会说他们要罢工直到有事情发生。事情发生了。内塔尼亚胡说他会暂停立法，而这带我们来到第二点，也就是内塔尼亚胡实在没有选择。就像安娜正确地指出的那样，以色列议会，也就是议院，这个星期末就要进入春假了。而无论什么立法在这周内无法通过，都只能被迫推迟到议会的下一次会议。内塔尼亚胡没有多数票。所以他把这件事说得好像他放弃了通过立法，但其实并没有。与此同时，还有谈判的余地。
Is there any middle ground, do you think, that protesters like you would accept? We would accept scratching what was currently, uh, uh, uh, legislated, what was currently passed into law, or on its way into being passed into law, and starting from there, starting from scratch. The way the Israeli legislation works is there through readings. Once the first reading is past, the second, the second and third readings are more formality than anything else. So basically, the way things stand now is that any law that passed the first reading is ripe to go. And the coalition at the drop of a hat can pass any such law, any such legislation into law. To us, that's a gun on the table. It's, it's, it's, we're not negotiating on, uh, on equal terms. We're negotiating under the rest. And as things stand, uh, as I describe them, there's really no room for discussion.
你认为抗议者们会接受什么妥协方案呢？我们会接受废除当前通过或即将通过立法的法律，从头开始。以色列立法的方式是通过多次审议。一旦第一次审议通过，第二次和第三次审议就更多是形式主义。所以事实上，现在的情况是通过第一次审议的任何法律都可以被通过。而联合政府可以轻易地把任何这样的法律变成法律。对我们来说，这就像桌子上的一把枪。我们并不是在平等的条件下谈判，而是在被压制的状态下谈判。就我所描述的情况，真的没有讨论的余地。
And in a phrase, as your, as your trust in Mr. Netanyahu, it probably didn't exist beforehand, but as far as the promises in negotiations go, it's gone now, has it? Netanyahu has not kept the word that he, uh, that, uh, he promised for the past, probably five years. Benny Gonson, Netanyahu, uh, uh, mentioned in his speech today, went into Netanyahu's previous government, multiple promises which Netanyahu did not keep. Dove Lavin Glick there, speaking to us from Jerusalem, where he'd been attending a protest against the government.
以你的信任度看待内塔尼亚胡先生吧，它在此之前可能并不存在，但就协商中的承诺而言，现在已不复存在了，对吗？内塔尼亚胡过去大概五年间从未遵守他承诺的诺言。本尼·甘松提到了内塔尼亚胡以前的政府，在他今天的演讲中指出了内塔尼亚胡未兑现的多项承诺。我们现在来自耶路撒冷的道夫·拉文·格里克，他刚刚参加了对政府的抗议活动。
We've made multiple attempts to speak to someone from Benjamin Netanyahu's Lecude party. No one has so far agreed to talk to us. If you want to hear more about the ongoing situation in Israel, you can follow all the latest developments on our live page at BBCNews.com. And stay tuned because we'll be returning to this story in just 15 minutes time. We'll hear more about the reaction from the United States as we speak to Dan Shapiro, former US ambassador to Israel under Barack Obama. You're listening to the BBC World Service Live from London. This is NewsHour.
我们曾试图与以色列本杰明·内塔尼亚胡所属的Lecude党的某个人谈话，但目前没有人同意与我们交谈。如果您想了解更多关于以色列当前局势的情况，您可以在BBCNews.com的实时页面上关注最新发展。请留意，我们将在15分钟内回到这个故事。届时，我们将听取美国反应的更多意见，与巴拉克·奥巴马政府时期担任驻以色列美国大使的丹·夏皮罗谈话。您正在收听来自伦敦的BBC World Service现场直播。这是新闻小时节目。
Coming up in the aftermath of the tornado in Mississippi, we'll hear from one community all but wiped out by the storm. We're a small town. And for to say, we got 25 casualties, right? That's a whole lot of people for this small town. You know, that's a whole lot of people. And everybody knows everybody. So if I don't know you, I know your mom. You know, we like them right here. For say 25 people gone, man, everybody suffered a loss.
在密西西比龙卷风之后的余波中，我们将听到一个社区的消息，该社区被风暴几乎摧毁了。我们是个小镇。你知道的，我们失去了25个人，对吧？这对于这个小镇来说是很多人。你知道的，那是很多人。每个人都认识每个人。所以，如果我不认识你，我也认识你妈妈。你知道的，我们在这里喜欢他们。失去了25个人，每个人都遭受了损失。
The main headlines are heavily armed young woman has killed six people, including children, at a school in the US state of Tennessee. The United Nations has described Ukraine as one of the world's biggest minefields after a year of war with 10 million people at risk. And human rights investigators have accused the EU of aiding and abetting serious abuses against migrants who've been detained in Libya. This is Paul Henley with NewsHour Live from the BBC.
主要头条是，在美国田纳西州的一所学校里，一名武装到牙齿的年轻女子杀死了六人，其中包括儿童。联合国将乌克兰描述为世界上最大的雷区之一，经过一年的战争，共有1千万人处于危险之中。人权调查员指责欧盟协助利比亚拘留的移民进行严重的虐待和违反人权行为。这里是保罗·亨利，来自BBC的新闻时事生活直播。
Police in the US state of Tennessee say a young woman has shot dead six people inside a school. Three of the victims were children. The White House is called a shooting heart breaking and urged Republicans to back President Biden's push for a ban on the assault weapons often used in US mass shootings. As the BBC's Gary O'Donohue in Washington, what more police were saying about this shooting? They're saying Paul that it took place just after 10 o'clock this morning and they were called to the school with reports of a shooter, an active shooter as they call it here. And it turns out they discovered the shooter on the second floor of the school. It's a small Christian school, only about 200 pupils and students in it. And they killed the shooter at the scene. It turns out the shooter is a 28 year old woman. And that is incredibly rare in this country.
美国田纳西州的警方表示，一名年轻女子在学校内枪杀了六人。其中三人是儿童。白宫称这起枪击事件令人心碎，并敦促共和党支持拜登总统推动的禁止在美国大规模枪击事件中经常使用的突击武器的计划。像BBC新闻中心的加里·奥多诺休在华盛顿所说的，警方有关这起枪击事件的更多说法是什么？他们说，这起事件发生在今天上午10点过后，他们接到学校有枪手的通报，当地称之为“活跃枪手”。结果发现枪手在学校的二楼。这是一所小型的基督教学校，只有约200名学生。枪手在现场被击毙。结果发现枪手是一名28岁的女性。在这个国家，这种情况极为罕见。
Just to give you a sense of how rare that is. 61 mass shootings in 2021, only one was a woman. At the moment what we're looking at, I'm afraid, is three children dead and three teachers dead. That's the latest update we have from the police. And they will be quite young children because this took pre-school up to what's called sixth grade in the United States, which is 11 and 12 years old.
只是让你意识到这是多么罕见。2021年发生了61起大规模枪击事件，只有一起是由女性进行的。目前我们所看到的情况是三个孩子死亡和三个老师死亡。这是我们从警方获得的最新消息。这些孩子很年轻，因为这次事件发生在普通学前班到美国所谓的六年级，即11岁和12岁年龄段。
And the Democrats call for a ban on assault weapons is relevant here. The police have confirmed, haven't they, that those were the weapons used? The shooter had two assault weapons with her hand-to-hand gun. So she was armed to do some serious damage, which is clearly what she's done. And it could have been even worse if there'd been more time before the police got there, but she's all ready as we know, killed six people, three children.
民主党呼吁禁止攻击性武器在这里是相关的。警方已经确认了，是吗，那些就是被使用的武器？枪手手里有两把攻击性武器。因此她装备齐全，可以造成严重的伤害，很明显她就是这样做的。如果警察赶到之前有更多时间的话，情况可能会更糟，但我们已经知道，她已经杀了六个人，其中三个是孩子。
Yes, there've been fresh calls from Joe Biden just now. He described the incident in pretty strong terms. He called it sick. And he renewed his call on Congress to pass an assault weapons ban. He has got some modest, modest gun reform legislation through in the last couple of years. But the assault weapon ban is a big one. And there has been an assault weapon ban previously in the United States, which was time-limited and expired. But really for sort of 20 years, you've been able, in most places, lots of places in the United States, to go out and buy some incredibly high-powered weapons with large magazines that can fire semi-automatic rounds and can do an awful lot of damage in a very short period of time.
是的，刚刚乔•拜登发出了新的呼吁。他毫不客气地称这次事件为令人发指，并再次呼吁国会通过禁止攻击性武器的法案。过去几年他已经成功推出了一些相对温和的枪支改革立法。但禁止攻击性武器的法案还是一个重大的挑战。此前美国也曾经有过时间有限的禁令，但自然失效了。实际上在过去的20年里，在美国的大多数地区，你仍然可以买到一些具有极高威力的武器，配备了大弹匣，能够发射半自动子弹，在短时间内造成巨大的破坏。
And has there been any response from Mr. Biden's opposition yet, especially those opposed to gun control? No, not so far. There's been some activity on social media expressing condolences. To be honest, Paul, what you typically get with these mass shootings, I'm sorry to say there is a pattern here, but there is a pattern is that the proponents of gun rights tend to go very, very quiet for the initial few days after these incidents. They keep their heads down.
迄今为止，拜登先生的反对派，特别是那些反对枪支管制的人，有给出任何响应吗？不，迄今为止还没有。一些社交媒体上表达了慰问的活动。说实话，保罗，这些大规模枪击案通常会出现一个模式，我很抱歉地说，但是模式就是支持枪支权利的人在这些事件发生后的最初几天里会非常非常安静。他们低头不吭声。
If they're confronted, they just talk about, you know, the damage to the families and how sad they are. And really, it's only once momentum turns towards what do we do about this? Will you hear them and see them putting their heads above the parapet? They know there's nothing to say in this and you don't have to be on one side of the fence or the other. It's just a pattern and that's what I'm sure we'll see again. Gary O'Donohue there in Washington, DC.
如果他们被迫面对，他们只会谈论受害家庭受到伤害及他们的悲伤心情。真正的问题是一旦大家开始询问该怎么做，那时候你才会听到见到他们在做决定。他们知道在这种情况下没有任何可以说的话，你也不需要站在某一方面。这只是一种模式，我相信我们会再次看到这种情况。那么在华盛顿DC的Gary O'Donohue就是这样说的。
The Scottish National Party has chosen its new leader. He is Humza Yusef, the grandson of immigrants from Pakistan. And he was elected by a narrow margin. Scotland's first ethnic minority, first minister, said his country needed independence from the UK more than ever, and that he would try to build a case for it among those who remained unconvinced.
苏格兰民族党已经选出了他们的新领袖。他是来自巴基斯坦移民家庭的胡姆扎·尤素夫。他以微弱的优势当选。苏格兰第一位少数族裔的首席大臣表示，他的国家比以往任何时候都更需要脱离英国独立，他将尝试在那些持怀疑态度的人中间建立独立的理由。
Opinion polling suggests that he is not as popular as his predecessor, Nicholas Sturgeon, and that a majority of independence remains elusive. Leslie Ridoch is a newspaper columnist who's also a campaigner for Scottish independence herself. She gave me her reaction to the news of Mr Yusef's win.
民意调查显示，他不如前任尼古拉·斯特金受欢迎，而独立的多数仍然难以实现。莱斯利·里多克是一位报纸专栏作家，她自己也是苏格兰独立运动的倡导者。她对优素福先生的胜利新闻做出了回应。
"It's a significant moment in a whole load of ways. I mean, he is the first Muslim leader of the SNP, will be our first Muslim First Minister. It's a very different set of circumstances than something that could have happened if the leading contender Kate Forbes had won. Her stance on equal marriage meant that the coalition that exists at the moment between the SNP and the Greens, both of them pro-independence parties, that would have fallen apart because the Greens are very keen on the gender recognition reform that has been a big divisive factor in the selection.
这是一个非常重要的时刻，在很多方面都是如此。我的意思是，他是SNP的第一位穆斯林领袖，将成为我们首位穆斯林首席部长。如果领先的竞争者凯特·福布斯赢得了的话，情况将非常不同。她在平等婚姻问题上的立场意味着目前在SNP和绿党之间存在的联盟将会瓦解，因为绿党非常支持性别认同改革，这在选举中是一个很大的分歧因素。
"So essentially today could have seen an awful lot of upsets and perhaps the end of the coalition government and minority government or the uncertainty that that brings and it didn't happen. And what's the mood at the Scottish Parliament more generally today? Sitting outside it here with the sort of media village that's pretty much assembled is kind of testimony to the statue that Nicholas Sturgeon has had as a leader.
今天本来可能会出现很多改变，甚至可能导致联合政府或少数派政府的结束，或者带来不确定性，但实际上这种情况并没有发生。那么苏格兰议会今天的氛围如何呢？在这里坐在议会外面，附近已经聚集了很多媒体，这明显证明了尼古拉斯特金作为领导者的地位。
"I don't think the change of leader in one party in a devolved government would have attracted anything like this attention with his international journalists and camera crews here as well. So Scotland has basically been throwing well above its weight essentially thanks to Nicholas Sturgeon's profile. And I suspect there's been a bit of a feeling amongst the media that they essentially almost hope that something a little bit more upsetting or more news grabby would happen. Instead something that's going to be more of the same has happened which essentially is probably quite good for everybody who wants to see some stability in government."
我不认为一个地方政府中一个政党领导人的更换会吸引到这么多国际记者和摄影团队的关注。所以，苏格兰基本上是因为尼古拉斯·斯特金的知名度而超常发挥。而我怀疑媒体中存在这样一种感觉，他们几乎希望发生一些更令人不安或更有价值的新闻事件。相反，发生的只是一些更正常的事情，这对于那些希望政府稳定的人们来说可能是很好的。
What is main challenges now, would you say?
你认为现在面临的主要挑战是什么？
"Well where do you start? He's got a lot of stalled policies which have proved controversial. Two principal ones. One is a bottle deposit return scheme. Now people listening across the world, there are 42 countries that do this and they may think it's surprising that this should be any sort of issue at all. It works, but it's been controversial here because small beer and other producers have said it will put them out of business to comply. So that has had a lot of criticism and might have to be rethought. The bigger one is a gender recognition reform act. This is the one that simply makes it easier for somebody who's trans to be able to change their official gender quickly and without needing to have a doctor certificate."
那开始说吧！他有很多停滞不前的政策，引起了争议。其中两个最主要的政策之一，是瓶盖回收计划。现在，全世界有42个国家实施这项计划，听众可能会认为这根本不应该是任何问题。它很实用，但在这里引起争议，因为小酒厂和其他制造商说这将使他们无法遵守而破产。因此，这受到了很多批评，可能需要重新思考。更大的问题是性别认同改革法案。这个法案让跨性别者更容易快速地更改他们的官方性别，无需医生证明。
But that is brought up a much bigger debate about women's rights and actually whether you can even call women women, which will seem strange to people but does flow from some of the present debate. That meant enough a lot of people leaving the Scotch National Party because they were furious basically about the introduction of this legislation at all. So he is prepared to have a challenge. It got passed in the Scottish Parliament. He is prepared to have a challenge with Westminster who want to veto it. And that's going to be difficult because a lot of the public are not sure that they want to see it passed even though they don't want to see London swinging in when it feels like it to veto things the whole Parliament voted for.
但这引起了关于女性权利的更大争议，实际上甚至还有人质疑是否应该称女性为女性，这对于人们来说可能很奇怪，但这确实是部分当前辩论的延伸。这意味着很多人离开苏格兰民族党，因为他们基本上对这项立法的引入感到愤怒。因此，他准备应对挑战。该议案已在苏格兰议会通过。他准备与希望否决该议案的威斯敏斯特进行挑战。这将是困难的，因为很多公众并不确定他们是否想要看到它通过，即使他们不想看到伦敦出现在感觉合适时否决整个议会投票通过的事情。
And you mentioned at the start of this interview that Hamza Yusuf is the first ethnic minority leader of the SNP. Do you think perhaps the story here is that that's not particularly remarkable given that the UK has an ethnic minority Prime Minister, a Mayor of London and Labour leader in Scotland even? It's great news that that is now completely unremarkable. Hamza in his acceptance speech used his own, if you like, ethnic minority status and the fact that his own parents had, grandparents had come to Britain to really say something strong about migrants. This is in contrast to the current policy by the British Government, which is very strongly rejected in Scotland anyway. And that follows from Nicola Sturgeon, the day after Brexit in Scotland she did a broadcast assuring everyone from Europe who had made Scotland their home, it would never be different. We welcome strangers, we welcome migrants, we need people in Scotland and we don't turn them away. As well as just saying it, Hamza Yusuf actually embodies it.
在采访一开始你提到了哈姆扎·尤素夫是苏格兰民族党的第一位少数族裔领袖。你是否认为这里的故事是，这已不再是特别引人注目的事情，因为英国已经有一位少数族裔总理、一位伦敦市长和一位苏格兰工党领袖？那真是个好消息。哈姆扎在他的接受演说中利用了他自己的少数族裔身份以及他自己的祖辈来英国，强烈表达了对移民的支持。这与英国政府的当前政策形成鲜明对比，在苏格兰，这种政策已经被强烈反对。这也是尼古拉·斯特金在英国脱欧后的第二天在苏格兰发表讲话时所说的，她向在苏格兰落地生根的欧洲人保证，情况永远不会改变。我们欢迎陌生人，我们欢迎移民，我们需要苏格兰人，我们不会将他们排斥。哈姆扎·尤素夫不仅说出了这些，他还亲身实践了这些。
That was Leslie Riddoch, who is a pro-independence newspaper colonist in Scotland, you're listening to the BBC World Service Live from London. This is news hour.
你在收听来自伦敦的BBC世界新闻直播。现在是新闻小时，刚才的发言人是莱斯利·里多赫。她是在苏格兰独立方面发表文章的专家记者。
In a moment we'll return to the subject of Israel and hear how President Biden's been reacting to unrest in the country. But first, inside the United States, among the greatest threats to life and livelihoods, often in the poorest states, is the threat of tornadoes. Even with modern shelters and some warnings in place, tornadoes can do a pooling damage. In the southern state of Mississippi, search and rescue operations have shifted to a massive cleanup after a tornado ripped through the state on Friday night. At least 26 people were killed and hundreds were left homeless.
等一下，我们会回到以色列的话题，了解总统拜登对该国动荡的反应。但首先，在美国国内，最大的生命和生计威胁之一往往出现在最贫困的州，那就是龙卷风。即使有现代化的庇护所和一些警报措施，龙卷风仍可能造成巨大的破坏。在密西西比州南部，搜救行动已转向大规模的清理工作，这是因为一场龙卷风在周五晚上肆虐该州，造成至少26人死亡，数百人无家可归。
Our correspondent Sophie Long sent this report from the town of Rowling Fork, which came close to being completely wiped off the map.
我们的记者Sophie Long从Rowling Fork镇发回了这份报告，该镇几乎被彻底抹去了。
I'm right in the heart of Rowling Fork and there are people everywhere trying to start to clear some of the debris, but it's a massive task. Well disaster response teams work to remove trees that are pinning down cables trying to restore power that thousands remain without still here. Survivors of the storm are sifting through the wreckage of their homes hoping to salvage something. I came across Darryl Stubbs and his mother mildred in the wreckage of their home.
我正在罗琳福克的核心地带，有很多人在努力清理残骸，但任务庞大。灾难应对团队正在努力移除压扁电缆的树木，试图恢复电力，但仍有数千人没有电。风暴幸存者正在搜寻他们家中的废墟，试图找回有用的东西。我在遍寻他们毁屋废墟中，遇到了达里尔·斯塔布斯和他的母亲米尔德雷德。
I'm expected maybe a little damage. When I get up here and I can't get in town, I don't see him. I'm seeing little kids. Seeing little kids hurting, you know, seeing little kids, seeing all of them people hurt. So I deal with a crew, you know, help move a couple trees, help pull a couple of people from tight spots, just deal with a crew. If I could, they help where I could. I had no idea if I was going to do this. I had no idea.
我可能会受到一些伤害，当我到达这里时，我进不了城市，我找不到他。我看到了一些小孩子。看到小孩子受伤，你知道，看到所有人都受到伤害。所以我和一个小组一起解决问题，帮忙移动几棵树，帮忙救出几个被困的人，只是与小组一起处理问题。如果能帮忙，我会尽力而为。我没有想到我会这么做。我一点都不知道。
Darryl helped to pull several people from the rebel, but he wasn't able to save his own uncle. From what they tell me, he, he, he, he, he, uh, turned into a lift of trailer. Tell me, he says, try to flatten down flat and it blew up. He told me he's seen the trailer go up in the air, flatten down like a pancake and just explode. Said my uncle's inside. So I didn't believe it.
Darryl帮助拯救了几个叛乱分子，但无法拯救他自己的叔叔。他们告诉我，他的叔叔被困在挂车里，当时挂车变成了一个压缩好的平面，然后爆炸了。他告诉我，他看到挂车像煎饼一样飞到空中，然后被压缩成平面然后炸了。他说我的叔叔就在里面。我当时不信。
President Biden has promised to provide federal funds and the support they'll need to rebuild here. But when you walk around and you see the extent of the destruction and the utter heartbreak here at what's happened at this stage. So soon after the storm, it's difficult to imagine really people ever fully recovering. But there is hope. It's like, we're a small town. And for the sake, we got 25 casualties, right? That's a whole lot of people for this small town, you know, that's a whole lot of people and everybody know everybody. So if I don't know you, I know your mom, but you know, it's, we like them right here. For say 25 people gone, man, everybody's suffering the loss. Yeah, all we can do is have hope at this point. All we can do is have hope. Like I hope, I hope that we can bounce back from this man. I know it's, it's, it's, it's a lot. I know I'm saying a lot and I'm hoping for a lot. But we lost a lot. That report from Sophie Long in the town of Rolling Falk, Mississippi in the US.
美国总统拜登承诺提供联邦资金和支持，帮助这里进行重建。但是，当你走在这里看到摧毁的程度和这个阶段所发生的彻底心碎的事情时，真的很难想象人们能否完全恢复。但是还有希望。就像我们是一个小镇一样，我们失去了25位人员，这对于这个小镇来说是很多人，每个人都相互认识。所以如果我不认识你，我认识你的妈妈，但是我们就是在这里。失去25个人，每个人都在承受这个损失。我们现在所能做的就是满怀希望。就是这样，我们现在能做的只有满怀希望。就像我希望我们能从中反弹回来一样。我知道这很难。我知道我说了很多，也想要很多。但是我们失去了很多。以上是Sophie Long在美国密西西比州罗林福克镇的报道。
You're listening to News Hour from the BBC. I'm Paul Henley and we return now to our main story. And the pressure on the Israeli Prime Minister brought about by public dissent, the scale of which Israel has never seen before. A short while ago, White House spokesperson, Karin Jean-Pierre, spoke at a media briefing about the latest developments in Israel. We welcome this announcement as an opportunity to create additional time and space for compromise. Compromise is precisely what we have been calling for and we continue to strongly urge Israeli leaders to find a compromise as soon as possible. We believe that it is the best path forward for Israel, Israel and all of its citizens to find this compromise. Democratic societies are strengthened by checks and balances and fundamental changes to a democratic system should be pursued with the broadest possible base of popular support. And so that's what we're going to continue to call for.
你正在收听来自BBC的新闻小时节目。我是保罗·亨利，我们现在回到我们的主要报道。以色列总理面临公众不满的压力，这是以色列从未见过的规模。不久前，白宫发言人卡琳·让-皮埃尔在媒体吹风会上就以色列的最新发展发表了讲话。我们欢迎这一声明作为创造额外时间和空间进行妥协的机会。妥协正是我们一直在呼吁的，我们继续强烈敦促以色列领导人尽快找到妥协。我们相信，这是以色列、以色列所有公民找到妥协的最佳途径。民主社会通过制衡和平衡而得到加强，对民主制度的根本性改变应该在最广泛的民众支持基础上推进。因此，这就是我们将继续呼吁的。
Dan Shapiro was US ambassador to Israel during Barack Obama's presidency. I asked him for his reaction first to the Israeli Prime Minister pausing his controversial judicial reforms today. The tipping point was yesterday when he tried to fire his defence minister, a member of his own party and even a supporter of the judicial overhaul who warned that pressing forward to pass it now and the way they were trying to pass it really posed a threat to Israel's security. Many IDF reservists, including Air Force pilots, had said they would not serve if they felt the government was moving away from democratic principles of separation of powers and checks and balances and rule of law. And because Israel's enemies might take advantage of the chaos that has been gulfed Israel over the last several weeks.
丹·夏皮罗是贝拉克·奥巴马总统任期内的美国驻以色列大使。我首先询问了他对以色列总理暂停有争议的司法改革的反应。导致此举的转折点是昨天他试图解雇自己政党的成员、甚至是支持司法改革的国防部长，他警告称继续通过此改革，且现在的做法真的会对以色列的安全构成威胁。许多以色列国防军后备军人，包括空军飞行员，都表示如果觉得政府远离分权制衡、法治和制衡原则，他们将拒绝服役。因为以色列在过去几周中所经历的混乱可能会被以色列的敌人利用。
We're told that President Biden has been quite candid with Prime Minister Netanyahu, will those candid words have contributed to his speech? And President Biden has said probably, but I think he has said it more directly privately in his recent phone call to the Prime Minister that the real foundation of the US is a relationship, the foundation that enables all the security cooperation and the economic partnership is that they share the common values of two democracies. And if those are called into question because of changes in the Israeli governing system that makes many Israelis feel and certainly many and other democratic nations feel that Israel is not upholding those democratic traditions and democratic institutions and principles, it could actually have a very damaging effect on the US-Israel relationship.
我们听说拜登总统对内塔尼亚胡总理非常坦率直白，这些坦率直白的话语是否对他的演讲有所帮助呢？拜登总统可能这样说过，但我认为他最近私下直接向总理打电话时也是这样说的：美国真正的基础是一种关系，这种基础使所有安全合作和经济合作成为可能，就是它们共享双方民主主义的共同价值观。如果由于以色列执政系统的变化而对这些价值观提出质疑，使许多以色列人民以及其他民主国家认为以色列没有遵守这些民主传统和民主制度和原则，这实际上可能对美以关系产生非常破坏性的影响。
So you're sounding vaguely relieved as if it's problem solved, but the Prime Minister is still talking about the will of the people and he doesn't mean the people on the streets. He's still talking about pressing ahead with all these plans. It may be problem-deferred.
所以你的语气听起来有些松了口气，好像问题解决了一样，但是首相还在谈论人民的意愿，他指的不是街上的人民。他仍然在谈论继续推进所有这些计划。这可能只是问题被暂时搁置了。
What he has said is that first the country can take a break for some upcoming holidays, then he'll make another attempt to pass a legislative package that would reform the balance of power between the different branches of government.
他说的是，首先国家可以在即将到来的假期里休息一下，然后他将再次尝试通过一个立法方案，旨在改革各政府分支之间的权力平衡。
What he added in his speech was that in the next Knesset session he would be prepared to try to engage in a dialogue with the opposition that he would seek a broad agreement, that it was better to have a broad agreement for major changes. This is exactly the point President Biden had made to him.
他在讲话中补充的是，在下一个议会会议上，他将准备尝试与反对派展开对话，他将寻求广泛的协议，认为对于重大变革来说，广泛的协议更好。这正是拜登总统对他提出的观点。
But at the end of the speech he also said to his own supporters, if we don't reach an agreement, we will still try to pass the package we just nearly brought to a vote. So it remains to be seen whether his attempted dialogue in reaching a broad agreement will have a pro-former character and then he will turn back to the more extreme package and satisfy his supporters that way, or if he will really engage in a serious attempt to try to reach a kind of solution for the bouncing of the different branches of the Israeli government that's 75% of the Israeli public can support.
在演讲的最后，他也对自己的支持者说道，如果我们无法达成协议，我们仍然会尝试通过我们刚刚几乎要投票的方案。所以现在还不清楚他试图达成广泛协议的尝试是否只是形式上的，并且还会回到更极端的方案，以此满足他的支持者，还是他真的会认真尝试去寻找一种解决不同分支之间反复的以色列政府的方案，得到75%以色列公众的支持。
So for future reference, what are the U.S.'s red lines? If Washington thinks Israel is no longer democracy because these reforms are gone ahead with, is that the end of the special relationship?
所以为了以后参考，美国有哪些底线？如果华盛顿认为以色列因为推行这些改革不再是民主国家，那么是否意味着特殊关系的结束？
I don't think we should talk in terms of red lines by the United States because President Biden has been very clear that this is a decision that only Israelis can make, the Israeli people and the Israeli government. I also wouldn't go to the point of saying if something passes, Israel is not a democracy.
我认为我们不应该使用美国的红线这个术语来谈话，因为拜登总统已经非常明确了，这是一个只有以色列人民和以色列政府才能做出的决定。我也不赞成说如果某件事情通过了，以色列就不再是一个民主国家。
However, what President Biden has said very clearly is that the separation of powers, rule of law, checks and balances between the different branches of government are all critical principles of democratic societies, seeking broad consensus and doing it transparently and slowly to enable that consensus to emerge is very important if making changes in that system.
然而，拜登总统非常清楚地表示，权力分立、法治、政府各部门之间的制衡都是民主社会的重要原则。为了让改革获得广泛共识，以透明和缓慢的方式进行，从而使共识得以形成，非常重要。
And the concern that had been raised by so many Israelis, hundreds of thousands on the streets, many very senior former judges, security officials, economists, business leaders, many people appointed by Prime Minister Netanyahu to senior positions in previous governments. And of course, observers outside was that the reforms that were being considered really would have resulted in a concentration of power in one branch of government with no check and no serious right of overview or review by the court.
许多以色列人，包括数十万上街抗议者、许多非常资深的前法官、安全官员、经济学家、商业领袖和前总理内塔尼亚胡指派的许多高级职位的人们，他们都表达了关切。 当然，外界观察者也担心考虑中的改革会导致政府的一支机构集中权力，而法院没有什么检查、审查权或者重要的监管权。
If this is a decision purely for Israel and its voters, what exactly is President Biden doing having stern words with Mr. Netanyahu on the phone?
如果这只是以色列和其选民的决定，那么拜登总统打电话向内塔尼亚胡施加压力做什么呢？
Well, it isn't Israeli decision and only Israelis can make it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some impact on US interests. President Biden has emphasized its core foundation is the common democratic values that enables so much of the partnership in security and economic and people to people terms that we experience every day.
好的，这并不是以色列的决定，只有以色列人才能做出这个决定，但这并不意味着它对美国利益没有影响。拜登总统强调，这个关系的核心基础是共同的民主价值观，这使得我们在安全、经济和人民之间的伙伴关系上每天都有很多经验。
Do you think this current crisis risks weakening Israel in the region, given that security has always been Israel's number one concern? This was exactly the concern that the Defense Minister, again, a member of the Prime Minister's own party, raised just yesterday.
你认为这场危机会不会削弱以安全为首要关切的以色列在该地区的地位？最近国防部长（同样是总理所在党派的成员）就提出了这个担忧。
I think that is a very real concern. The fact that he would be dismissed for expressing that concern really, I think, was what produced that very strong, spontaneous, emotional outburst last night. So it's something that I think the Prime Minister and the rest of the Israeli leadership will have to take into consideration.
我认为这是非常真实的担心。事实上，他因为表达这种担忧而被解雇，我认为这才引发了昨晚强烈、自发、情感激烈的爆发。因此，我认为总理和以色列领导层必须考虑这个问题。
When Israeli society is divided and Israeli society is really the undergirding of the Israeli military because it is a people's army, it always has to defend itself against the threats it has always faced. But that is the link, I think, between the divisions that this proposal caused and the concerns about Israel's security that the Defense Minister raised.
当以色列社会分裂时，以色列社会实际上是以色列军队的支柱，因为这是一个人民军队，它必须始终捍卫自己面临的威胁。但我认为，这就是这项提议引起分歧和国防部长对以色列安全担忧之间的联系。
Dan Shapiro, former US ambassador to Israel, and if you want to hear more about the ongoing situation in Israel, you can follow all the latest developments on our live page on BBCNews.com.
丹·夏皮罗，前美国驻以色列大使。如果你想知道更多有关以色列持续局势的最新发展，可以关注我们在BBCNews.com上的实况页面。
To Myanmar now, and on February 1, 2021, there was a military coup there, which ousted a democratically elected government led by Ong Sang Su Chi. Immediately after the coup, there were widespread protests which were brutally suppressed. Many thousands of people have been jailed and the pro-democracy leader Su Chi has faced several charges in politically motivated trials.
现在，缅甸发生了一次军事政变，时间是2021年2月1日，合法民选政府领导人昂山素季遭到推翻。政变之后，广泛的抗议活动被残酷镇压。成千上万的人被监禁，民主领袖昂山素季在政治动机下面临多项指控和审判。
For some time now, there's been no independent foreign media operating inside the country. Today, though, our South Asia correspondent Jonathan Head has been allowed into the country for the first time since 2021.
有一段时间以来，境内就没有独立的外国媒体活动了。然而，我们的南亚记者乔纳森·海德今天首次获准进入该国，自2021年以来。
He recorded this sound of a military parade in the capital, Napertour. And a few hours ago, my news hour colleague, Razia Iqbal spoke to Jonathan Head, asking him how free he'd been to report since he'd arrived.
他在首都纳珀图录下了一场军队游行的声音。几个小时前，我的新闻同事拉齐娅·伊克巴尔采访了乔纳森·海德，问他自到达以来报道有多自由。如有必要，请改写。
"We're not very free at all. We have a letter from the Prime Minister and the Ministry of Information making it clear we can only visit two places. That's the capital, Nipertour where I am, which is more or less a kind of garrison city. It was built by the military 20 years ago. They have their own fortified zone in it. It's about as secure as you can get in this country. And then Yang on the commercial capital where the military cemented its control quite a long time ago. Although there are still periodic attacks there. There was a pro-military lawyer assassinated just a couple of days ago. So it's not completely secure. We have been told we might be able to visit one of the well-known tourist spots, but otherwise we cannot travel around the country.
我们根本没有太多自由。总理和信息部给我们来信，明确表示我们只能参观两个地方。这两个地方是首都Nipertour，我现在就在那里，那里几乎是一个要塞城市。20年前是军方建立的，他们在城中有自己的设防区。这是全国最安全的地方。另一个地方是商业中心Yang，军方在那里很早就控制了。尽管还有间歇性的袭击事件。就在几天前，一位亲军方的律师被暗杀了。因此，这里并不完全安全。我们被告知可能能够参观其中一个著名的旅游景点，但是除此之外，我们不能在国内旅行。
But more difficult is talking to people. The laws that the military has passed as enforcing since the coup make it in effect criminal to criticize the government in anywhere at all. So it's actually dangerous for other people. If we go and talk to them, the people are very scared if you ask them anything at all. So you're very, very constrained in what you can find out about ordinary life here. So that's the context in which you are able to operate.
但更困难的是与人交谈。军方自政变以来实施的法律使得批评任何政府举措在任何地方都可能成为犯罪行为。因此，与其他人交谈实际上是很危险的。如果我们去和他们交谈，人们会非常害怕，如果问他们任何问题。因此，你在了解这里的普通生活方面非常受限制。这就是你能够操作的背景。
And behind the cheery music that we just heard that marching band clearly quite a lot of darkness still in Myanmar. "A great deal. I mean this military parade they put on every year. It is a spectacular sort of well-drilled kind of occasion where the military puts it's really a show of force. It's a chance for the military to claim its place in Myanmar's history. It's repeated at time and again justifying its prominent role. And no more more so than now because the military leader is of course running the country. I mean all I know is very rarely seen in public. He gave a set piece speech today. Rehashing old grievances showing no signs at all really of regret for that catastrophic coup which has been utterly disastrous for the country.
在我们刚听到的愉快音乐背后，缅甸仍然有相当多的黑暗。“非常多。我是说他们每年举行的这场军事游行。这是一场壮观的、有条不紊的场合，军队真的很有表现力。这是军队宣称其在缅甸历史上的地位的机会。他们一遍又一遍地重复，以证明自己的杰出角色。现在更是如此，因为军方领导人当然正在治理国家。我所知道的是他非常少在公共场合露面。今天他发表了设定的演讲，重新梳理旧怨，完全没有表示对那次灾难性的政变感到后悔，这对国家来说是毁灭性的。”
The economy is in free fall. Prices are going through the roof. The currency has plunged in value. And that's in the cities. We can't even get to the places where we know the situation is completely desperate. These are large suites of the countryside in particular places where communities have refused to accept the authority of the military have formed their own defence forces are trying to run their own schools and health centres. They'll be attacked from the air and it was somewhat sinister today to see this tremendous amount of hardware that's been supplied by Russia and China in particular. It's being shown off by the military but we've seen a rough video taken by people of these very same planes and helicopters bombing and firing rockets into effectively undefended villages.
经济正在自由落体式下跌。物价飞涨。货币的价值大幅度下跌。而这只是在城市里。我们甚至无法到达那些我们知道情况极其危急的地方。这些是大片农村地区，特别是一些拒绝接受军方管理的社区，他们自建了防御力量，试图运营自己的学校和卫生中心。他们将受到空袭，今天看到的是由俄罗斯和中国特别提供的大量军用装备。军方正在展示他们拥有的这些可怕装备，而我们已经看到一些人拍摄的粗略视频，这些同样的飞机和直升机轰炸和向无法有效防御的村庄发射火箭。
Jonathan, where do you see this going? You describe a country where the coup has been catastrophic for it. Many people are languishing in jail. There are politically motivated trials and atrocities being committed by the military. What do you think might shift any of these things?
乔纳森，你觉得这会怎么样呢？你描述了一个政变对这个国家造成了灾难。很多人正在坐牢。军方正在犯下政治上的暴行和罪行。你认为有什么可能改变这些情况呢？
"I think the military is counting on there not being a shift. It's gone back into a mode of thinking that it's maintained during the very long decades it was in power for the 1960s right through to about 10, 12 years ago. When it simply waited out the opposition while it crushed it wherever it found it. Pretty much the same model as an operation now.
我认为军方指望着没有变化。它回到了一种思维模式，这种模式在它长达数十年的1960年到大约10、12年前执掌政权期间一直维持着。它只是等待着反对势力被击败，无论在哪里发现反对势力都会压制它。现在的运作模式基本上是一样的。
What's been remarkable about the response to the coup is how strong the opposition has been and how many people have been willing to take up arms once they were given no chance to protest peacefully despite the overwhelming odds against them. That's why it's being catastrophic because this country has been plunged into a civil war in large parts of it and in some ways it's getting uglier because the military is using much more of its firepower now. It's getting much better at finding out where pockets of insurgency are and it is utterly ruthless in destroying them including some really dreadful atrocities which I think are meant as a warning to put other people off and looking at it and looking at the dreadful economic situation here.
对政变的反应让人惊异的是，反对派的力量是如此之强大，许多人在没有和平抗议的机会的情况下愿意拿起武器，尽管他们面临着极不利的情况。这就是为什么这是一场灾难，因为这个国家的大部分地区都陷入了内战，而且在某些方面变得越来越丑陋，因为军方现在使用更多的火力。它越来越擅长发现哪些地方有叛乱，而且在摧毁他们时是彻底无情的，包括一些非常可怕的暴行，我认为这是为了警告其他人而做出的。看着这一切和这里可怕的经济状况，让人感到十分沮丧。
You do sense and from talking to a few people in Yangon you get the sense as well that people are getting exhausted that they are being, you know, it's a war of attrition and the military is simply waiting them out. The sad fact is the military regime does have the active support of big powers like Russia and China. It has the tacit support of big neighbours like India and Thailand and the opposition forces including those loyal to Anson Suchi who is locked up away somewhere not far from where I'm staying now.". Of course no one can see her. The opposition has no support at all really. That was our southeast Asia correspondent Jonathan Head in Myanmar speaking to news hours Raziakipal.
你可以感觉到，通过与一些仰光的人交谈，你也可以感觉到人们正在变得精疲力尽，他们正在经历一场消耗战，而军方只是在等待他们。不幸的是，军政府确实得到了俄罗斯和中国等大国的积极支持。它还得到了印度和泰国等邻国的默许支持，而包括忠于安散·苏奇的反对势力在内，他们被关在离我现在住的地方不远的某个地方。当然没人能看到她。反对派实际上根本没有支持。那就是我们的东南亚记者乔纳森·海德在缅甸对新闻人士拉齐亚基帕尔说话的情况。
Another school year has started this weekend in Afghanistan but teenage girls were forced to stay at home. The Taliban government has barred girls and women from secondary schools and from universities in Afghanistan. The only government in the world to do so. The BBC South Asia correspondent Yogi Te Limai in Mumbai has been gathering additional news as well in Kabul and has sent this report.
这个周末在阿富汗又开始了一个新学年，可是青少年女孩却被迫待在家里。塔利班政府禁止阿富汗的女孩和女性上中学和大学，这是世界上唯一一个这样做的政府。英国广播公司在孟买的南亚驻外记者Yogi Te Limai在喀布尔采集了更多的新闻，并发来了这篇报道。
As a new school year began, Afghan women were out on the streets again. Education is our right, it's our red line, don't politicise it. They chanted as they marched in Kabul protesting against the Taliban's bar on secondary school education for girls. Crucial years are being wasted for tens of thousands like 15-year-old Tamanna. She isn't able to hold back tears. When I see the boys go to school and do whatever they want, I feel hurt. It's hard to hope that our schools will be very open. It's evident on Tamanna's face that her grief is still raw. When I see my brother going to school, I feel sad and broken. Earlier my brother used to say, I won't go to school without you. I would hack him and say, you go, I will join you later because I thought the Taliban might change your minds. Almost every time we've spoken to teenage girls in Afghanistan about school, they've broken down within minutes of the conversation.
当一个新的学年开始时，阿富汗女性再次走上了街头。教育是我们的权利，是我们的红线，不要将其政治化。她们高呼着这样的口号，走在喀布尔街头抗议塔利班妨碍女孩接受中等教育。像十五岁的塔玛娜这样的成千上万的女孩子正在浪费关键的岁月。她已经忍不住流泪了。当我看到男孩子们去上学、做他们想做的事情时，我感到很心痛。很难希望我们的学校会非常开放。从塔玛娜的脸上可以看出她的悲痛还是很刻骨的。当我看到我的兄弟去上学时，我感到很悲伤和疲惫。以前，我兄弟常常会说，如果没有你，我就不去上学了。我会告诉他，你去吧，我过一段时间再来，因为我想塔利班可能会改变你的想法。当我们跟阿富汗的少女谈论学校时，几乎每次都在几分钟内就崩溃了。
Some are trying to find ways around the ban. Barashto is in her 20s. She runs a network of secret schools trying to help as many girls as possible continue their studies hidden away from the Taliban. You talked to so many of these students who aren't allowed to go to school. Can you explain for us what that's like day to day? What is their life like? Well, the life really looks like you're injured and when you go to a hospital they ask you to wait. And you're in the waiting room while your blood is going out from your bruises that you have. Everywhere in your body especially in your heart. It is devastating, it's frightening, it's heartbroken, and the worst of all is not having any hope and being helpless because nobody right now in the world speak about helping us. They just condemn that's all they think that they have to do. The international people are telling us that we don't recognize the Taliban, but each day we see that they are hand-overing their imbuses to the Taliban. Aren't you scared that you might get caught? Oh, absolutely, I'm scared. Everybody of us are scared that we are afraid but we still have to do that because we do not have any other way. The thing that billions of girls in all around the world are doing very thinly as they are wishing to do, girls in Afghanistan have to do that secretly with all the fear in the world inside their heart and they're so shaking inside their body.
有些人试图绕过禁令。Barashto二十多岁。她经营着一个秘密学校网络，试图帮助尽可能多的女孩在塔利班遮掩下继续学习。你和那么多不被允许上学的学生交谈过。可以为我们解释一下他们的日常生活是什么样的吗？他们的生活是什么样的？嗯，生活实际上就像你受伤了，当你去医院时，他们让你等待。你在等候室里，而你的血从全身的瘀伤处流出，尤其是心脏。这是毁灭性的，令人害怕，令人心碎，最糟糕的是没有任何希望，感到无助，因为现在世界上没有人说要帮助我们。他们只是谴责，这是他们认为必须做的。国际人士告诉我们，我们不承认塔利班，但每天我们都看到他们将权力交给塔利班。你不害怕会被抓吗？哦，绝对害怕。我们每个人都害怕，但我们仍然必须这样做，因为我们没有其他办法。全球数十亿女孩都在渴望着做的事情，而阿富汗的女孩却必须带着内心所有的恐惧秘密地做，他们的身体也在颤抖。
The Taliban say the closure of schools and universities is temporary until a suitable environment can be created. The women and girls we spoke to said they did not believe them but had no option but to hope every day. That was the BBC's Yogi Te Limai reporting.
塔利班说关闭学校和大学只是暂时的，直到有合适的环境。我们采访的女性和女孩说她们不相信塔利班，但她们别无选择，只能每天抱有希望。这是BBC的Yogi Te Limai报道。
The United Nations Children's Agency is among many international organizations calling for the immediate reopening of education to girls and women in Afghanistan but there is still no sign of a change in policy from the ruling Taliban. Thomas Niklason is the European Union Special Envoy for Afghanistan and he was there earlier this month talking to Taliban representatives. He told me he'd heard positive noises on women and girls education. The acting ministers I speak to, none of them has said that they are against girls and women's right to education. In fact, they say that they see it as the right. So girls and women to learn and to study. However, they were not very forthcoming in giving a date when secondary schools would reopen or giving any date when universities would reopen. So clearly there's a problem at the top. I have been discussing this now with the Taliban for close to two years and whereas previously they pointed out various technical obstacles say refer to the lack of school buildings or the lack of teachers or the lack of school buses. This time they didn't make any such specific remark. It seems to me therefore that it is a political problem rather than a technical problem.
联合国儿童基金会是众多国际组织之一，呼吁立即重新开放阿富汗女孩和妇女的教育，但统治塔利班方面仍未显示政策变化的迹象。托马斯·尼克拉森是欧盟驻阿富汗特使，本月早些时候就此事与塔利班代表进行了交谈。他告诉我，他听到关于女孩和妇女教育的积极声音。 我跟代理部长们谈话时，他们中没有一个说过反对女孩和妇女受教育的权利。事实上，他们认为这是正确的。 为了让女孩和妇女学习和研究。然而，他们没有非常积极地给出开放中学的日期，也没有给出任何大学重新开放的日期。因此，显然存在上层问题。我现在已经与塔利班讨论这个问题近两年了，之前他们曾指出各种技术障碍，例如缺乏学校建筑、缺乏教师或缺乏校车。这次，他们没有做出任何具体的备注。因此，我认为这是一个政治问题，而不是技术问题。
And the Taliban representatives that you talk to, do they admit that they're telling you one thing and doing another? They still say there is no ban on education and they still say that they need to find solutions. They refer sometimes to conservative constituencies in various parts of the country but it seems to me that they are actually instead of recognizing that progress was made during the last 20 years, more in the cities and in the countryside, more in the north than in the south, instead of trying to build on that and bring the other parts of the country up to that, they are actually pushing and holding back those parts of the country where more girls went to school than before.
一些塔利班代表和您谈话时，他们承认自己说一些事情，但实际上做的又是另外一些吗？他们仍然说没有对教育禁令，并且仍然说需要找到解决方案。他们有时会提到全国各地的保守选民，但我觉得他们实际上并没有承认过去20年中在城市和农村，尤其是在北部取得的进展，而是在推动并阻碍那些比以前更多女孩去上学的国家其他地区的发展。需要建立在过去的进展上，将其他地区带上同样的高度，而不是去拉低那些已经取得进展的地区。
The truth is that you and the rest of the international community have very little leverage all the international community has left it is aid and with holding that doesn't seem to have made any difference. Change in policies in Afghanistan must come from within the country. Every single Afghan I speak to and that includes actually the acting ministers have said that they are in favor of girls' education, girls' right to learn.
事实是你和国际社会其他成员所拥有的影响力很少，国际社会所剩下的只有援助，而这似乎没有产生任何差异。阿富汗的政策改变必须来自于国内。我与每一个阿富汗人都谈到，包括现任部长在内，他们都赞成女孩教育，女孩有学习的权利。
So what we can do from the outside I think is provide additional arguments why education is not only a right but also a good thing from an economic and social point of view. But ultimately the push for change policies must come from inside the country. And what you said about pressure for change coming from inside Afghanistan, what evidence have you seen of that? Well, I mean when I was in Kabul I met with one very brave man and we see many, many more brave women arguing for girls and boys' right to learn. It's also challenging traditional values and traditional cultures in parts of the country.
我认为我们能从外部提供更多的论据来证明教育不仅是一项权利，也是从经济和社会角度来看的好事。但是最终改变政策的推动必须来自该国内部。你所提到的来自阿富汗内部的变革压力，你看到了什么证据吗？嗯，我的确在喀布尔遇见了一个非常勇敢的男人，并且我们看到许多勇敢的女性为男女孩子的学习权而争取。这也在挑战该国部分地区的传统价值观和文化。
This has not led to massive change throughout the country but we see that schools remain open in certain parts of the country. We see that Afghans we speak to and listen to understand the value they want their girls, their want their daughters, their sisters to be able to learn. So if I'm hopeful and I try to be despite a very gloomy picture I see that that's where change will come. We have seen very little positive change, we have seen a lot of negative change over the last 18 months. But I do believe that if all Afghans or the very large majority of them believe in education and managed to argue their case in the medium to long term, they will prevail.
虽然这并没有在整个国家引起巨大变化，但我们看到某些地区的学校仍然开放。我们发现所谈话者和倾听者都明白他们想要让女孩、女儿和姐妹们学习的价值。因此，尽管我看到了一幅非常阴暗的画面，我仍然充满希望，因为我相信教育就是改变的源泉。在过去的18个月里，我们几乎没有看到任何积极的变化，反而看到了许多负面的变化。但我相信，如果所有阿富汗人或绝大多数人相信教育的力量，并在中长期内成功地争取自己的立场，他们一定会取得胜利。
Thomas Niklas on there, the European Union special envoy to Afghanistan. And that was NewsHour for a Monday evening UK time. Thank you very much for listening. Do join us again soon if you can. NewsHour has been a download from the BBC to discover more and our turns of use visit BBC.com slash podcast.
这是一个在英国时间星期一晚上发布的节目。节目中提到了欧盟驻阿富汗特使Thomas Niklas。非常感谢您的聆听，如果您能的话，请继续关注我们的节目。NewsHour 是 BBC 的一款播客，想了解更多信息及使用条款，请访问 BBC.com/podcast。
A series of increasingly sophisticated cyber crimes being carefully orchestrated around the world. The attraction to target ATMs is fairly obvious, I mean, not full of cash. It was just like Abra Gaddaq, put these cards, put any pin number, any good money. Japaad. US investigators say the heists are being carried out by the Lazarus group, a criminal hacking gang who was said to be working under the orders of the North Korean state. Tens of millions of dollars for the North Korean.
世界各地正在精心策划一系列日益复杂的网络犯罪。针对自动取款机的吸引力相当明显，毕竟有现金。就像阿布拉加达克一样，放这些卡片，输入任何PIN码，就能拿到大量现金。美国调查人员称，这些盗窃行动是由拉撒路组织进行的，这是一个犯罪黑客团伙，据称他们是在朝鲜政府的指令下行事。数千万美元进入了朝鲜。
These actors are not as anonymous as they think they are. The group's goal? To steal money? To help fund the country's growing ballistic missile and nuclear program. But despite evidence suggesting otherwise, North Korea denies any involvement. In season two of the Lazarus Heist, from the BBC World Service, we're following the latest twists and turns in the incredible story of the Lazarus group hackers. Empires and piles of stolen cash. Over two billion dollars, we're at 2.1 billion dollars and still in funds.
这些演员其实并不像他们想象的那样匿名。这个团伙的目标是什么呢？是偷钱吗？是帮助资助该国不断发展的弹道导弹和核计划吗？尽管有证据显示北朝鲜参与其中，但该国却否认有任何牵扯。在BBC World Service的《拉撒路黑客团的第二季》中，我们跟随这个令人难以置信的故事中最新的转折和诡计。帝国和堆积的赃款，超过了20亿美元，现在已经达到210亿美元，仍未停止。
Search for the Lazarus Heist, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
到您能获得BBC播客的任何地方去寻找《拉撒路大劫案》。以像中文母语者那样的方式说话。如有需要，请重新编写。