E127: Presidential Candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in conversation with the Besties
发布时间 2023-05-05 22:06:39 来源
摘要
(0:00) Bestie intros!
(0:49) Jason and Sacks intro Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
(3:46) Foreign policy: Ukraine / Russia
(17:17) Foreign policy: Taiwan / China
(18:57) Government spending: Fiscal responsibility, where to cut budget, debt ceiling
(33:22) US Govt Intelligence Agencies: "Deep State," increasing accountability, "agency capture"
(46:04) COVID: mishandling, more "agency capture," vaccine policy
(55:10) Broader thoughts on vaccines in general
(1:05:54) Energy policy: thoughts on nuclear
(1:15:29) Culture wars: trans issues, CRT in schools, public vs charter schools
(1:23:09) Media: declining trust, misaligned incentives, conflict of interest with large advertisers
(1:30:07) Mainstream media coverage, ABC News debacle, evolving with new information, money in politics
(1:40:37) The Besties do a post-interview debrief
(1:57:30) Announcing All-In Summit 2023!
Follow the besties:
https://twitter.com/chamath
https://linktr.ee/calacanis
https://twitter.com/DavidSacks
https://twitter.com/friedberg
Follow Robert F. Kennedy Jr:
https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr
Follow the pod:
https://twitter.com/theallinpod
https://linktr.ee/allinpodcast
Intro Music Credit:
https://rb.gy/tppkzl
https://twitter.com/yung_spielburg
Intro Video Credit:
https://twitter.com/TheZachEffect
#allin #tech #news
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Sacks you're ready. You got your quick time going. Oh, let me do that real quick and just a quick note, Sacks Mr. Kennedy doesn't have earpieces in so he we just have to be careful of the crosstalk or talking over each other I'll direct questions to each person and then follow up so you can obviously just use your judgment of when to insert yourself but be gentle on the insertion there because we don't want that came out wrong. Just be gentle when you interrupt There's your cold open at least if you did it incorrectly it'll be quick.
萨克斯，你准备好了。你的快速反应已经准备好了。哦，让我快速安排一下。一个小提示，肯尼迪先生没有戴耳机，所以我们必须小心谈话交错或互相打断。我会先向每个人提问，然后跟进。你可以根据情况自行决定何时插入，但要注意不要过于唐突。我的意思是，当你打断别人时要温和一些，因为我们不希望出现什么误解。如果你做错了，至少这是一个冷开场。
Okay, here we go in three two All right everybody welcome to the all-in podcast As many of you know this podcast has gotten quite popular the last two years typically in the top 10 or 20 each week and we talk about politics We've got a big Following in DC and why are you calling these self-absorbed Chabad? I mean listen to how your cold opens a show calm down everybody Yeah, yeah, and as part of that our ongoing discussions about politics and presidential candidates has resonated in particular Communities and today we are lucky enough to have one of the top presidential hopefuls in the 2024 election joining us Robert Kennedy Jr
大家好，现在我们要开始录制All-in播客。你们中的很多人都知道，过去两年里，我们的播客非常受欢迎，每周通常排名前10或20名，我们谈论政治。我们在华盛顿DC有很多粉丝。你们为什么叫这些自恋的Chabad？听听你们演示片的语气，冷静一点，大家都冷静一点。我们一直在讨论政治和总统候选人的话题，这些话题在特定的社区中引起了共鸣。今天我们非常幸运地邀请到2024年总统大选的顶尖候选人之一——罗伯特·肯尼迪·小组成员与我们交流。
And we will it be inviting all presidential candidates to come on to the all-in podcast and have candid discussions that are unfeltered The way the audience would expect them. We're gonna play with different formats, but we decided for this first one We've got a series of topics we'd like to cover and And we're gonna treat it like any other all-in podcast with that.
我们将邀请所有总统候选人参加All-in播客，开展坦诚无疑的讨论，以满足听众的期望。我们会尝试不同的格式，但我们已经决定在这个第一次活动中探讨一系列我们想要覆盖的主题，并且像处理其他All-in播客那样对待它。
I'll have David Sacks Who has is the most conservative of our panel who has been also the most enthusiastic? I think of everybody here and one of the most enthusiastic supporters of Robert Kennedy Jr's pursuit of the presidency of the United States So with that David would you like to introduce our guest? yeah
let me give Bobby a proper introduction here So Robert Francis Kennedy Jr is entering the political arena as a candidate for the first time at the age of 69 But it's perhaps no exaggeration to say that he was destined for the mission he is now pursuing He is the nephew of President John F. Kennedy and the son of Attorney General and Senator Robert F. Kennedy when Bobby was 14 His dad was running for president on a platform of civil rights civil liberties lifting Americans out of poverty and opposing the Vietnam War He had just won the California primary when he was tragically assassinated RFK Jr. Graduate from Harvard and the University of Virginia law school and became an environmental lawyer who aggressively litigated against corporate polluters and Government agencies that were failing to regulate them
我将邀请大卫·萨克斯，他是我们小组中最保守的人，也是最热情的支持者之一。我认为他是在场所有人中最热情支持罗伯特·肯尼迪二世竞选总统的人之一。所以，大卫，你想介绍我们的嘉宾吗？好的，让我来给鲍比一个恰当的介绍。罗伯特·弗朗西斯·肯尼迪二世今年69岁，首次进入政坛参选，但也许可以说，他注定要追寻他现在所追求的使命。他是美国前总统约翰·肯尼迪的侄子，也是总检察长和参议员罗伯特·肯尼迪的儿子，在鲍比14岁时，他的父亲正在竞选总统，主打民权、公民自由、扶贫和反对越南战争的平台。他刚刚赢得加利福尼亚州的初选时，不幸被暗杀身亡。RFK Jr.毕业于哈佛大学和弗吉尼亚大学法学院，并成为了一名环境律师，积极起诉那些污染公司和未能对其进行监管的政府机构。
He has always put the health and safety of the American people at the forefront of his activism And this has made him controversial at times as he has questioned the safety of some pharmaceutical products and also criticized COVID restrictions during the pandemic for this the mainstream media has tried to paint him as a quote conspiracy theorist But given that so many conspiracy theories about COVID have been vindicated Table of magazine wrote quote at this point the fact that Robert F. Kennedy is the country's leading conspiracy theorist alone qualifies him to be president But the biggest reason why I think his candidacy is so interesting and Relevant is that it harkens back to a democratic party that believed in peace instead of war free speech and civil liberties to have censorship Building up the middle class instead of the donor class and Opposing corporate greed, especially in the military industrial complex, which is a message you just don't hear much anymore coming from the democratic side of the aisle So with that Bobby Kennedy welcome to the program Thank you so much for having
他一直将美国人民的健康和安全放在他的行动的首要位置。这使得他有时引起争议，因为他质疑了一些药品的安全性，并且在大流行期间批评了COVID限制。为此，主流媒体试图把他描绘为“阴谋论者”。但鉴于COVID的许多阴谋论都被证明是正确的，《Table of Magazine》发表评论说“现在罗伯特·F·肯尼迪成为领先的阴谋论者，这一事实使他有资格担任总统”。但我认为他的竞选最有趣和相关的原因是它回归了民主党信奉的和平而非战争、言论自由和公民自由、反对审查制度、建立中产阶级而非捐赠者阶级、反对企业贪婪，特别是在军工复合体方面。这是一种在民主党一边的讯息，你很少能听到。所以，在这里，欢迎Bobby Kennedy加入我们的节目。感谢您的光临。
so maybe we could start with Foreign policy something we've discussed here specifically the Ukraine and Russia's invasion of Ukraine and our support of that war Sax would you like to tee up a question for mr. Kennedy? I think Bobby's tweets on the subject show that he has a really deep understanding of it He's been saying a lot of things that I've been saying since the beginning of the war which it it not just the fact that we're risking war three over You know getting involved in a in a country that isn't a treaty ally the United States and a relevant interests in the United States But I think your critique goes deeper because you actually understand the causes of how this war started So maybe you know Bobby you could speak to that how how did we end up in this proxy war with with Russia from from your standpoint?
也许我们可以从外交政策开始讨论，特别是乌克兰和俄罗斯入侵乌克兰以及我们对这场战争的支持。Sax，你想提一个问题给肯尼迪先生吗？我认为Bobby在这个问题上发的推文表明他非常深刻地理解了这个问题。他一直在说一些我从这场战争开始就一直在说的话，这不仅涉及到我们冒着引发第三次世界大战的危险，介入一个非条约盟国的国家以及美国和相关利益，而且还因为你真正理解了这场战争的起因而更深层次的批评。也许，Bobby，你可以谈谈你的看法，我们为什么会卷入这场与俄罗斯的代理战争中？
Well, You know for first of all I would let me start by saying this I I supported the humanitarian aid to the Ukraine which is why we were told initially was the was the mission although I had I was suspicious of it and you know my son as as I've mentioned Actually went over left law school did not tell us where he was going and went over and joined the foreign Legion and fought in the car key offensive with a special forces group he was served as a machine gunner.
首先，我想说的是，我支持向乌克兰提供人道主义援助，据我们最初被告知，这是任务之一。尽管我对此有所怀疑。同时，我儿子为了加入外籍军团，去了卡尔基进攻战并加入了特种部队，作为一名机枪手服役。我之前提到过他。他离开了法学院，没有告诉我们去了哪里。
He was an engagement with the Russians and But he feels the same way essentially that I did this is No longer a humanitarian mission at all the decisions the United States have made As made since since the start has been about have been about prolong the war about maximizing the the violence of the war and Being absolutely in transigence against the many opportunities to actually settle the war if you and and that my Understanding of the war is that not that Zelensky is pushing this war as hard as he can But that the Neacons and the White House Want this war they want it regime change with the Russians they want to exhaust the Russian armies This is what this fan secretary Lloyd Austin said in 2022 our objective is to exhaust into the great Russian forces So they cannot fight anywhere else in the world And President Biden acknowledged that one of his objectives in the wars regime change in Russia removing the Adam Air Putin Well, if those are the objectives that is the opposite of a humanitarian mission That is a mission to maximize casualties to prolong the war it's essentially a war of attrition and that's what we're seeing.
他与俄罗斯人有过接触，但实质上他与我有相同的感受，这已经不再是一个人道主义使命了。自开始以来，美国所做出的决定一直是关于延长战争，最大程度地增加战争的暴力和绝不妥协，对实际解决战争的诸多机会置之不理。我的理解是，文琴斯基不是在尽力推动这场战争，而是新保守主义者和白宫想要这场战争，他们想通过推翻俄罗斯政权来达到精疲力竭俄罗斯军队的目的。这就是劳埃德·奥斯汀国防部长在2022年发表的讲话，“我们的目标是使俄罗斯军队精疲力竭，无法在全世界的其他地方战斗。”拜登总统承认，他在这场战争中的一个目标是推翻俄罗斯并罢免普京。如果这些是目标，那么这与人道主义使命背道而驰，这是一场以最大化伤亡和延长战争为目的的战争。本质上，这是一场耗尽对方战力的战争，而这正是我们所看到的。
And the brunt of this is being paid by the flower of Ukrainian youth There have been over 300,000 This is something that the US government and the Ukrainian government have worked hard to hide number of casualties Which has been catastrophic this is the most violent conflict since World War two that's take it place probably anywhere in the world and The casualties are enormous all over 300,000 Ukrainian debt Russians are killing Ukrainian depending on who you believe at a ratio of five to one two eight one Which is the seven to one in the and recently recently leaked whistleblower leaked Pentagon documents and The Russians cannot lose this war we're being told they're losing they cannot afford to lose this war This is existential for them and they have been building up their forces They have a tend to one artillery advantage on us and this is an artillery war So it's simply and we do not have the artillery to replace what we've lost up there.
这场战争的主要受害者是乌克兰年轻人的精华。已经有超过300,000名乌克兰人死亡，这是美国政府和乌克兰政府努力掩盖的事实。这是自二战以来在世界上任何地方发生的最激烈的冲突，伤亡惨重，超过了300,000名乌克兰士兵和平民被俄罗斯人残忍杀害，根据不同报道，死亡比例从5比1到7比1不等。近期泄露出来的五角大楼文件显示，俄罗斯人无法输掉这场战争，因为对他们而言，这是生死存亡的问题，他们在不断增加兵力，他们的火炮数量比我们多10倍以上，而这是一场以火炮为主的战争，因此我们根本没有足够的火炮来弥补我们在那里失去的损失。
This is a war that is proceeding in a very cataclysmic trajectory and The answer to your question about how we got in this war Goes back a long way, but I would say that the real story starts in 2014 when the US government and particularly the Neocons in the White House in elsewhere participated and supported the overthrow violent over the row of coup d'etat against the democratically elected government of the Ukraine and put in a very very any Russian government.
这是一场走向灾难性轨迹的战争。对于你关于我们如何卷入这场战争的问题，要回溯很远，但我会说，真正的故事始于2014年，当时美国政府，尤其是白宫里的新保守主义者，参与并支持了针对乌克兰民选政府的暴力推翻政变，并安装了一个非常亲俄罗斯的政府。
This prompted the Russians so that and believe that the US With Navy was now going to be invited into the Black Sea to have a port at Crimea It prompted the Russians to preemptedly In they Crimea at the same time The the government that went came into the Ukraine began enacting a series of laws that Turned the Russian populations of the Dombas region into second-class citizens They they they illegalized essentially their culture their language and And they began ultimately killing them they killed 14,000 of them and it was as it prompted a civil war in the country and the Russian Response which it was illegal. I have no sympathy or Towards Vladimir Putin Vladimir Putin is a gangster and he's a thug but his His response in the Dombas was not irracial.
这促使俄罗斯人认为美国海军现在被邀请到黑海，在克里米亚拥有一个港口。这促使俄罗斯人采取先发制人的措施，同时在克里米亚。当时，乌克兰政府开始出台一系列法律，将顿巴斯地区的俄罗斯族人民变成了二等公民。他们非法化了他们的文化和语言，并最终开始杀害他们，杀了14,000人。这引发了该国内战和俄罗斯的反应。我对普京没有同情或同情之情。普京是个匪徒，但他在顿巴斯的反应并不是种族主义的。
So I guess the question becomes if you were elected president Would you stop sending armaments to Ukraine? I would immediately Have a ceasefire and I would settle the war and I think it can be a saddle. I don't even know I mean it lives in the best settlement for this war was outlined in the Minsk Accords in 2014 The Minsk Accords which all the European Countries agreed upon Was when the Russian sit and the Russian people in Dombas voted to leave Russia and Russia did not want them Russia said no Let's develop an accord an agreement which would make Dombas a An autonomous region within the Ukraine which would agree to not put missile systems in Ukraine NATO missile systems Which would agree that you Ukraine would not join NATO if Zelensky says no, I want to keep fighting would you Stop sending US weapons.
我猜问题是，如果你当选总统，你会停止向乌克兰发送武器吗？我会立即停火，解决战争，我认为这是可行的。我甚至不知道，我的意思是，这场战争的最佳解决方案已经在2014年明斯克协议中得到了概述。明斯克协议是欧洲所有国家都同意的协议，当时俄罗斯和顿巴斯的俄罗斯人投票决定离开俄罗斯，但俄罗斯不希望他们离开。俄罗斯提出了一项协议，即让顿巴斯成为乌克兰的自治区，同意不在乌克兰部署导弹系统，也同意乌克兰不加入北约。如果泽连斯基说不，我要继续战斗，你会停止向乌克兰发送美国武器。
I would settle this war. The Ukraine cannot fight without US support. So then at some point you would tell us Zelensky if I'm reading into what you're saying correctly. Hey settle it. You're out. Yeah, I would settle the war. Yeah. Do you think that we somehow allowed Zelensky to believe that we would allow him in NATO? Meaning do you think that US foreign policy somehow almost induced this thing to happen? I just want to try to understand the boundaries.
我会解决这场战争。乌克兰没有美国的支持就不能打仗。所以你最终会告诉我们，如果我理解你的话。嘿，解决它。你们退出。是的，我会解决战争。你认为我们是否在某种程度上让泽连斯基相信我们会让他进入北约？这是否意味着美国的外交政策在某种程度上引发了这件事情发生？我只是想尝试了解边界。
We have been doing integrative Military exercises with the Ukrainian military so we were actively Integrating them into NATO forces. There was no question that you know the one thing that Putin said from the outset. This is a red line. You know when I uncle is present. One of the things that he said he said a couple of things he said number one The principal job of a president United States is to keep the nation out of war and he succeeded doing that during his term in office.
我们一直和乌克兰军队一起进行综合军事演习，以便将他们积极地融入北约力量。毫无疑问，普京一开始就说过一件事，这是个红线。你知道当我叔叔在场的时候，他说了几件事，第一件是美国总统的主要职责是让国家避免战争，在他的任期内他成功地做到了这一点。
He said 16,000 military advisors to Vietnam who were not authorized to participate in combat. That didn't mean that some of them didn't they were not authorized and in fact That was fewer federal troops than he said to get James Maritus into the University of Mississippi. So he's and fewer of Vietnam and two weeks before he died, he saw in a national security order ordering all of those troops home by 1965 with the first Thousand to come home that month in November and he died two weeks later.
他说有16,000名军事顾问被派往越南，他们没有得到参加战斗的授权。这并不意味着他们中的一些人没有参加战斗，实际上比起为了让詹姆斯·麦里图斯进入密西西比大学所派出的联邦部队更少。所以他派遣的军队更少了，而且在他去世的两周前，他下达了一份国家安全命令，要求所有这些部队在1965年之前回国，首批1000人在11月份回国，他去世两周后的事情。
So and then of course Johnson came in and a remand of the war and sent 250,000 troops over there Which is what all my uncle's military advisors wanted him to do. And he stood up to them one of the other things my uncle said and you know the anniversary of his speech at American University Which is an extraordinary speech probably one of the best in American history Jeff's acts is called the most important speech in American history.
然后约翰逊当然也介入了战争，派遣了25万名士兵去那里，这正是我叔叔的军事顾问们想要他做的事。他站起来对他们说“不”。我的叔叔说过的一句话是，“你知道，他在美国大学的演讲周年纪念日，这是一次非凡的演讲，可能是美国历史上最好的之一。杰夫的行为称之为美国历史上最重要的演讲。”
It was a speech to the American people and it was an extraordinary speech because he read it is asking them to put their Their themselves into the shoes of the Russians and understand that the Russians bore the brunt of World War two. They lost one out of every thirteen Russians died in that war. Third of their country was occupied and leveled to the ground. It's like he said It's as if the entire East Coast the United States to Chicago was put into rubble.
这是一篇针对美国人民的演讲，非常特别的一篇演讲，因为他表达了希望美国人民能够置身于俄罗斯人的角度，理解俄罗斯在二战中所付出的代价。他阐述了俄罗斯在那场战争中损失了每13个俄罗斯人中的一个，其三分之一国土被占领并被夷为平地。可以形容为整个美国东海岸到芝加哥地区都被夷为平地。
And he described this in detail for the American people to say you know We're all people we're all on an arc and we need to we need to understand each other's motives And not just vilify each other and what we're seeing now is this formulae Vellification is narrative that we saw is Zodomo saying was you know booten with every little war that we want to get into.
他详细阐述了这一点，对美国人民说，我们都是人类，我们都在一个轨迹上，需要理解彼此的动机，而不仅仅是将彼此诬蔑，现在我们看到的是这种公式化的诬蔑叙述，就像Zodomo所说的，我们想参与每一场战争。
Those guys are pure evil work here good and we're gonna go rescue You know the damsel and distress just on that could you contrast and compare just maybe the last three or four presidents on this very narrow dimension of That of JFK's promise of what a president should be doing Bush Obama Trump and now Biden how do you see the things that these guys have gotten right and or very wrong here on that dimension just on that Dimension, you know, I've been friends with Joe Biden for many many years.
那些人是纯邪恶的，在这里工作得很好，我们要去拯救那位处于困境的少女。说到这一点，你能否对比一下最后三到四任总统在JFK的总统承诺方面，即总统应该做什么，布什、奥巴马、特朗普和现任总统拜登在这个方面做得对和错在哪里？就这个方面而言，你是如何看待这些人在这个维度上所取得的成就和不足的？你知道，我和乔·拜登是多年的朋友了。
But Joe Biden is you know, he's a go-to-war guy he he was one of the strongest supporters of the Iraq war. He's been supportive of every war that's come along and that you know I think that's one of the reasons that you know some of those that that portion of the Democratic Party, which is a very very powerful kind of king pickers Was very happy with him getting an office is that he never says no to a war. I Think Trump, you know, I liked a lot of what Trump's had about foreign policy about disentangling us from this knee jerk reaction of you know of constant wars and that the cost that that imposes on our country what it's doing It's hollowing out our middle class.
乔·拜登是一个喜欢开战的人，他曾是伊拉克战争最坚定的支持者之一，并支持过每一场战争。那就是为什么一直支持民主党的那一部分人希望他上任，并且非常高兴他上任的原因之一。他从来不会拒绝战争。我认为，特朗普在外交政策上所说的很多内容我都喜欢，尤其是要摆脱我们对不断战争的即兴反应的依赖，这给我们国家带来了高昂的代价，这也在逐渐削弱我们的中产阶级。
But then Trump did a lot of things including walking away from they you know from The intermediate nuclear missile treaty which is it was another provocation for Russia because that treaty. You know, we're putting these intermediate missile systems all along the Russian border and Romania and Poland and you know and in in Ukraine and And that those missiles can he a cuba I mean can he hit Moscow And in a few minutes so there was a very destabilizing system. We all signed it and he walked away from it and now I don't think that was a I think that was another provocation.
然后特朗普做了很多事情，包括退出你知道的中程核导弹条约，这是对俄罗斯的另一种挑衅，因为那个条约，我们在俄罗斯边境的罗马尼亚、波兰和乌克兰放置了这些中程导弹系统，而这些导弹可以打到古巴，可以在几分钟内打到莫斯科，这是一个非常不稳定的系统，我们都签署了条约，而他退出了条约，现在我不认为这是一个好的决定，这是另一种挑衅。
We should be de-escalating these provocations though, you know the why it didn't NATO. This is what George Kennen said after after you know the Soviet Union collapse. Why do we even have NATO anymore? Why do we have it? Why do we have it unless we're gonna involve the Russians in it? Why don't we do a martial plan for Russia? We won the war they are the losers. They admit they're the losers, but they want to join the European community. Let's make that easy for them. That's not continued to treat them as if they're the enemy because that is a. self-fulfilling prophecy And that unfortunately is what we did Let's pivot then you want to contain and you would force everybody to the table to a resolution If I'm understanding correctly You weren't explicit in terms of would you remove support? But I think we can infer from it you would have a point at which you would stop sending armaments to Ukraine We have tremendous moral pressure and economic pressure and everything else on Ukraine How about this Jason? I mean would you be willing to take NATO expansion off the table if it helps resolve this conflict? Yeah, everybody's Biden won't. Well Biden won't right? No, no, it's absolutely Why are we trying to expand? We gave our word We would not expand NATO one inch to the east and now we've gone into 13 countries You know, it's a it is a provocation
我们应该通过缓和这些挑衅行动来解决问题，这正是乔治•肯南在苏联崩溃后所说的。我们为什么还需要北约？我们为什么需要它？除非我们要牵涉到俄罗斯人的事情，否则我们为什么需要它？为什么我们不给俄罗斯一个马歇尔计划呢？我们赢了战争，他们是输家。他们承认自己是输家，但他们想要加入欧洲社区。让我们为他们做得更容易一些。不要继续把他们当作敌人来对待，因为那是一个自我实现的预言，而不幸的是，这正是我们所做的。让我们转变思路，你想要遏制并强迫每个人坐到桌前解决问题，如果我理解正确的话，你并没有明确表示你是否会撤回支持。但是我认为我们可以从中推断出，你会有一个停止向乌克兰发送武器的时间点。我们对乌克兰施加了巨大的道德压力和经济压力，还有其他一切。杰森，你觉得这样怎么样？如果取消北约的扩张有利于解决这一冲突，你愿意这样做吗？是的，每个人都知道拜登不会这样做。拜登不会，绝对不会。为什么我们要扩张？我们承诺过不将北约向东扩张一英寸，现在我们已经进入了13个国家。这是一个挑衅行动。
Let's talk about Taiwan so We got to stay out of wars if Xi Jinping decides Taiwan is strategic and he invades Taiwan. What would your response be if you were elected president? Well, my response would be to de-escalate that conflict There's essentially a war party in Washington um that is Is encouraging that conflict that is drumming of that conflict what I would do is I would I would De-escalate it. I would stop looking at it as a threat But I now and and and allow The Chinese and the Taiwanese to come to their own solution about what kind of relationship they have And I think that that if we stop Our provocations towards the Chinese that that would naturally de-escalate and if China decided it strategic and we're going in anyway Would you if you were president to fend Taiwan? That's a question that I would not answer I'm curious why not why don't presidential candidates just answer that question because you're committing the country To a war in the future that would be probably the bloodiest war ever fought And it's not something that strategically is not good strategy to protect but reject your your intentions You want to leave room for negotiation? You want to leave room for all kinds of movements and you want to have a debate with the American people and with Congress If Biden's been clear that he would defend it right so that's an it's an interesting insight right there freeberg
让我们谈谈台湾，如果习近平认为台湾是战略重要地区并入侵台湾，我们必须保持中立避免卷入战争。如果你当选总统，你的回应会是什么？我的回应将是降低冲突。华盛顿实际上有一个战争派，他们鼓励这种冲突，加剧这种冲突。我的做法是降低冲突，停止将其视为威胁，允许中国人和台湾人自行解决他们之间的关系。我认为，如果我们停止挑衅中国，局势自然会降温。如果中国决定入侵台湾，作为总统，你会保卫台湾吗？这是一个我不会回答的问题。为什么总统候选人不直接回答这个问题？因为这将意味着承诺未来开战，那将成为有史以来最血腥的战争，并不是明智的策略。你想给谈判留出空间，会有不同的因素和人物影响决策，还要与美国人民和国会展开辩论。拜登明确表示他会保卫台湾，这是一个有趣的见解。
Do you want to talk maybe a little bit about the economy and the spending that we're seeing? Yeah, so Robert, I think my biggest question. I've Reference this on the show a number of times is this extraordinary concern. I have About the fiscal deficit and the debt level of the US Running deficits north of a trillion dollars a year 33 trillion in total debt Some people use the debt to GDP metric which you know at this point is approaching or has exceeded 130 percent And 52 nations that have reached that level of debt to GDP only one of them has not had to restructure Their currency or restructure their debt payments
你想谈一下经济和我们目前看到的支出吗？嗯，罗伯特，我认为我最关心的问题是财政赤字和美国的债务水平。每年运行逾1万亿美元的赤字，总债务达到33万亿美元。一些人使用债务与国内生产总值的比率来衡量，目前这个比率已经接近或超过了130%，在达到这个水平的52个国家中，只有一个国家没有被迫重新调整货币或重组债务支付。
Obviously with the debt ceiling approaching and some Fiscal conservatives using this moment as a point to try and generate leverage. I guess my biggest question for the country Now and going forward is you know, do we actually have the ability to pursue all of these interests on a social a geopolitical a security agenda and And do so without having either a balanced budget or a plan That says here are the boundaries and here are the boundary conditions because in the last couple of years and particularly In the last five years we've seen almost like a bipartisan Unmitigated spending spree that you know is largely driven to You know to do what the electorate wants which is to give people stuff and giving people stuff cost money and that money has to be paid back at some point
显然，随着债务上限的逼近，一些财政保守派将这个时机作为努力获得杠杆的点。我的最大问题是，现在和未来，我们是否真的有能力在社会、地缘政治和安全议程中追求所有这些利益，而且在没有平衡预算或计划的情况下这样做。过去几年特别是过去五年，我们看到了几乎像两党的无法控制的支出狂欢，主要是为了给人们提供他们想要的东西，但给人们东西是需要花钱的，这些钱早晚需要偿还。
I guess how do you think about the importance of this and how do you think about the boundary conditions that you would You know look to articulate and impose As you you know think about this role With respect to the deficits spending and the debt levels for this country in terms of a boundary I you know, I would love to hear arguments about that I You know I with as you say, but I think the debt is now 32 trillion GDP our GDP to and 25 Trillion so that is that's just a really alarming ratio I if you look at why you know that the primary cause are our military expenditures it we're spending eight this year, I think uh 8.4 trillion dollars on the military budget this year
我猜想你对这个问题的重要性怎么看，以及你如何思考你在这个领域中希望表达和强制执行的边界条件。关于这个国家的赤字支出和债务水平方面，你是如何思考边界条件的？我很想听听你的论据。就边界而言，我认为债务已经达到了32万亿美元GDP，而我们的GDP只有25万亿美元，这是一个非常令人震惊的比率。如果你看看造成这种情况的主要原因，就会发现我们花费了8.4万亿美元的军事预算。
But if you throw in the homeland security and all that surveillance and security expenditures at home It's one point well one trillion a year That's one point one trillion a year that is attributable to Essentially to our our you know warmonger And I don't think we can afford to be police now the world anymore. We have 800 bases around the world We need to start rebuilding our middle class at home. We need to be responsible with our debt And we need my grandfather always said That we should make America too expensive to conquer we should make fortress America We should arm America to the teeth at home so that note so we're too expensive to conquer and then we should concentrate on building up our economic power and a robust middle class That's what's gonna make America strong and instead of projecting military strength abroad We ought to be rejecting our economic strength and a marketplace of ideas and economic power
但是，如果计入国土安全和所有的监控和安全支出在国内，那就意味着每年要花费1.1万亿美元，这基本上归因于我们的好战政策。我认为，我们不能再扮演世界警察了。我们在世界各地拥有800个基地，我们需要开始重建国内的中产阶级。我们需要对债务负责，我祖父常说，我们应该让美国成为征服成本太高，筑起要塞般的美国。我们应该在国内武装到牙齿，以保证我们的防御能力，集中力量发展经济，打造强大的中产阶级。这才是让美国强大的关键，我们应该强调经济力量和市场的思想和经济实力，而不是在国外展示军事实力。
I you know why right now we're borrowing six six billion dollars a day Mainly from the Chinese and Japanese just to serve the interest on that debt That's not a healthy thing for America to be and we got to figure out you know a way to Impulse fiscal discipline, but I can't tell you exactly what my boundaries would be That's something I need to think about. But how do you how do you think about that?
你知道为什么现在我们每天要借六十亿美元的钱，主要是从中国和日本借来的，只是为了支付债务利息吗？这对美国来说不是健康的事情，我们必须想办法实施财政纪律，但我无法准确告诉你我的界限会在哪里，这是我需要考虑的问题。但是你如何考虑这个问题？
Like I think non-of discretionary spending You know defense is is about 800 billion non-defense is about 900 billion and then obviously their social security benefits Medicare and Medicaid In order to get the budget balanced You think cutting defense would be kind of the first priority and you could kind of get there through You know that approach, but I there still seems to be a big gap to me on you know given how much we're spending On how do we actually get there? Are we ultimately gonna have to kind of change retirement benefits Restructure Medicare Medicaid or are we gonna raise taxes or are we gonna do all three? To get to this point otherwise we have this obviously kind of never ending debt spiral that that's that's gonna cause a massive crisis
我认为在自由支出中，除了国防开支大约为8000亿美元外，非国防开支大约为9000亿美元，显然还有社会保障福利、医疗补助等。为了平衡预算，我认为削减国防开支应该是首要任务，可以通过这种方式实现，但我认为仍存在很大的差距，考虑到我们的开支情况，我们应该采取哪些措施来实现预算平衡？我们最终要改变退休福利、重组医疗保险和医疗补助，还是要提高税收，或者都要做？否则，我们将陷入永无止境的债务螺旋，可能引发一场巨大的危机。
Uh, whether it's not this year. Maybe it's in five years or ten years Right now it's projected social security will go bankrupt in 2035 2034 around that range. So this is coming up fast Where are we gonna be cutting besides defense and or are we gonna be raising taxes to 70% do you think? To kind of bridge this whole I can't answer that question any better than I already have you know, I think with their there is there are targets for opportunity and the uh In the homeland security.
嗯，也许不会在今年。可能是在五年或十年内。目前，社会保障计划预计将在2035年左右破产。这个问题正在迅速逼近。除了国防以外，我们将在哪些方面进行裁减，或者你觉得我们是否需要将税率提高到70%？我无法更好地回答这个问题了，我认为在国土安全部方面存在机遇和目标。
I think once we stop fighting these words all over the world There's a lot in that less than eight for us to have a surveillance stated home So the real cost in the military is one point one trillion a year And not just the 800 trillion that shows up on the books And I think those are targets for opportunity and I can't you know, I have to know I need to study more the issue about how to How to get back into a balanced budget.
我认为，一旦我们全世界停止与这些词汇的争斗，我们将有很多机会来建立一个监视有序的家园，这将少花费我们很多费用。而真正的军费成本是每年1.1万亿美元，而不仅仅是账簿上显示的800万亿美元。我认为，这些是机会的目标，我必须深入研究如何实现财政平衡。
I you know one of the things I'd say with disturbs me Is that I don't think we should be playing chicken In congress about raising the debt ceiling Um, because I think I don't think we should mess around with the full faith and credit of the United States Particularly at this point time one of the things that's happened in the world bobby is that There's been a couple of countries france is probably the best example That had to raise the retirement age and irrespective of The view that one has on whether that was right or wrong The practical reality of doing it is just that when these initial social safety nets were passed the average life expectancy of folks was 10 15 years less than what they are today and presumably as we keep inventing technologies folks are going to live to 80 90 a hundred years on average which may seem impossible, but is likely if you look at the trend
我认为有一件事情让我感到不安，那就是我不认为我们应该在国会中玩命搏杀来提高债务上限，因为我认为我们不应该拿美国的全民信用来开玩笑。特别是在现在这个时候。在世界上发生的一件事情就是，有几个国家，比如法国，不得不提高退休年龄。无论我们对这样做是否正确有什么看法，实际的情况就是，当这些最初的社会保障措施通过时，人们的平均寿命比今天少了10到15年。而且可以预见，随着我们不断发明技术，人们的平均寿命可能会达到80、90或100岁，这似乎是不可能的，但如果你看一下趋势，这很有可能。
I'm just curious how you think about the state of our social safety net and What has to change what would you keep the same and what has to be totally reimagined for what the world will look like in 30 or 40 years.
我只是好奇你对我们的社会保障网络的状态有什么想法？什么需要改变，什么需要保持不变，什么需要完全重新构思，以适应未来30或40年的世界。
I would say it's a red line for me to touch social security um Or medicare medicare i think we need to take care of people particularly people who have spent their whole life paying into a system. And with a promise at the end and and have worked hard and uh And saved and done what they were supposed to do. I don't think they you know, it's right to pull they rug out from under them. But again, I this is an issue that I need to spend more time looking at uh and studying maybe the next time I come back here on better answer for you guys.
我想说的是，对于我来说触及社会保障或医疗保险是一个红线。我认为我们需要关心那些一生都在为这个系统付出的人，他们在这个过程中获得了承诺，并且通过辛勤工作、储蓄和履行责任来实现了这些承诺。我认为将安全网从他们脚下拉开是不正确的。但是，这是一个我需要花更多时间研究和学习的问题，也许下次我回来时会给你们更好的答案。
I think this is my concern is uh, sorry, but Robert the the comment you just made is the same comment I hear from both sides of the aisle that we can't touch those social security medicare medicaid because it would be so unpopular. We wouldn't get elected and that's ultimately kind of what a democracy like ours may lead to is that folks vote And elect representatives that are going to create these systems that benefit them.
我想表达的，恕我直言，Robert你刚刚的评论和我听过的两派人士的评论一样，都指出我们不能触及社会保障、医疗保险和医疗补助，因为这样会引起普遍反感。我们不会赢得选举，这最终可能是我们这样的民主社会所导致的，人们投票选择并选出那些能为他们创造利益的代表。
But in aggregate we may not be able to support those benefits over time and at scale. And we may be facing that moment sooner than any of us want to. And I think it's one of the more pressing Issues and concerns not just for the United States, but for the global economy. That if the US doesn't resolve this massive whole. Talking about social security for example going bankrupt in the next 12 years as one acute example of that problem set. You know, we may not be able to turn it around.
但总体来说，我们可能无法长期以大规模地支持这些福利。并且我们可能会比任何人都想要的更早面临这一时刻。我认为这是一个更紧迫的问题和关注点，不仅仅是针对美国，而是针对全球经济。例如，如果美国不能解决这个巨大的问题，比如社会保障在未来的12年内破产，那么我们可能无法扭转它的局面。
And I mean, do you think that politics is set up to solve The structural economic problems that the US is now facing because so much of politics ends up leading towards what additional benefits can I provide to my Uh, the folks that get me elected here's the thing Is we spend eight trillion dollars in the war in Iraq Eight trillion dollars and we got nothing for it. Yeah, that's pretty nuts. That's nuts In fact, we got worse than nothing.
我是说，你认为政治是为了解决美国现在面临的基础经济问题而设立的吗，因为很多政治行为最终会导致为我的选民提供什么额外的好处。这就是问题所在。我们在伊拉克战争中花费了8万亿美元，但我们没有得到任何好处。是的，这很疯狂。事实上，我们得到的反而比没有好处更糟糕。
We killed more Iraqis than Sonnet, but saying we killed a million Iraqis probably Uh, we created ISIS we turned Iraq into a proxy for Iran, which is exactly what we've been not trying to do for 40 years Um, and we drove two million refugees with the Iraq war and it's after mass Syria and Yemen and you know, Pakistan and Afghanistan two million refugees and we grew up These stabilized democracy in Europe and we go ahead so eight trillion dollars there.
我们杀死了比索内特更多的伊拉克人，但说我们杀了一百万伊拉克人可能不太准确。我们创造了伊斯兰国，我们把伊拉克变成了伊朗的代理国家，这正是我们过去40年一直不想做的。我们因伊拉克战争和其后的叙利亚、也门、巴基斯坦和阿富汗的大规模难民潮而导致两百万难民。我们破坏了欧洲不稳定的民主，并在那里投入了八万亿美元。
We spent 16 trillion dollars on the pandemic on the lockdown and again got nothing in return Um, so that's 24 trillion dollars and now we're doing bank bailouts every you know couple of months uh, uh, uh, uh, look on valley bank Fed said that it was uh, uh, printing 300 billion dollars for that made up for all of the you know, deflationary um, uh, uh, uh, uh, steps that the Biden administration had previously taken.
我们在疫情期间进行了16万亿美元的封锁措施，并没有得到任何回报。现在我们又进行了银行救助，每隔几个月就会进行一次。谷歌银行联邦储备银行表示，它正在印刷3000亿美元，以弥补拜登政府之前采取的所有通缩措施。
So you go to uh, you know, you go to a American who's been working their whole life. And has been promised at the end of the life that they're gonna get a few bucks every month. And you know, I have a friend who I brought to my speech with me who's who we um during the same month that we committed and another 750 million during March seven weeks and 750 million dollars extra to the Ukraine. We uh, we cut 15 million Americans from Medicare.
所以你去找一个美国人，他们整个人生都在工作，被承诺一生的结束会获得每月几个美元。我有一个朋友和我一起去听演讲，我们在同一个月份承诺给乌克兰额外的7.5亿美元，在3月份又额外的给了他们7.5亿美元。然而我们同时又从医疗保险中削减了1500万美国人的福利。
My friend got a call from I from the from the government On his cell phone a recorded call saying that your food stamps have just been cut by 90 percent. He went from two hundred and eighty three dollars a month to twenty five dollars a month. So you try to feed yourself on twenty five dollars a month There are 30 million Americans who are starving right now And that to me is unacceptable.
我的朋友接到了一通来自政府的电话，内容是一段录音说他的食品券削减了90%。他的月度食品券额从283美元降到了25美元。所以他只能用25美元每月来养活自己。目前有3000万美国人正在挨饿，我觉得这是不能接受的。
And it's hard to go to people like that people who have been honest who have played by the rules. Who have done everything that they were supposed to do with the promise that they would be taken care of that their health care would be taken care of an old age. You go to those people and say okay now we're gonna cut your food stamps. And try to feed yourself on twenty five dollars a month try to feed yourself for twenty five dollars a week. We're telling them that.
这很难向像那些曾经诚实、按规矩行事的人寻求帮助。他们所做的每一件事都应该被照顾好，他们的医疗保健和晚年生活都应该被照顾好。你去告诉这些人，好吧，现在我们要削减你们的食品券。试图用每月25美元的食品券维持生活，试图用每周25美元的食品券维持生活。我们告诉他们这样做。
And then uh And then spending eight hundred billion to make a plane. How you gonna cut the federal budget when you're sending over a hundred billion to Ukraine? There's you can't you have no more authority to do it. I want to finish that by saying You know You're like tankering in the engine room when the ship is sinking You know because But you know they ordered or switching deck textures on the Titanic Let's deal with the real problem.
然后呢，你们花了八百亿来制造一架飞机。你怎么能在向乌克兰捐赠超过一百亿的情况下削减联邦预算呢？你已经没有足够的权限了。我想说的是，你就像当船沉没时在机房烧水的工人一样。他们在泰坦尼克号上改变甲板颜色，我们应该面对真正的问题。
Let's figure out how to make this nation a nation that is really focused on taking care of our people Inside rather than saying okay well in order to pay for the Ukraine war We got to screw every American on social security and Medicare. We've had by the way The inflation that we've. created from you know from from just printing money Is making my friend keys food twice expensive so the the cause of stables in this country is raised by 76% in two years And now they're cutting these food stamps and bailing out the same month three hundred million dollars the silicone Valley Bank We got it. I mean that it doesn't make any sense and having this kind of conversation How do we screw with the poor to make sure that we can you know we can milk them while we're doing all of this great It's this country is acting like the alcoholic Who is behind on his mortgage And who takes the milk money and goes into the bar and buys rounds for the strangers You know that's what you're dealing with That's a pretty good analogy shots everybody
让我们想办法让这个国家真正专注于照顾我们本国的人民，而不是说，好吧为了支付乌克兰战争，我们必须损害每个社会保障和医疗保险的美国人。另外，我们造成的通货膨胀，由于不断印钞票，导致我的朋友基斯的食物价格增加了一倍。所以这个国家的稳定因素在两年内上涨了76％，现在他们正在削减这些食品券，而又向硅谷银行注入了三亿美元。这毫无意义，我们怎么才能剥削穷人，以确保我们在做所有伟大的事情时能够榨取利润呢？这个国家就像一位房贷拖欠的酗酒者，拿走了牛奶钱去酒吧为陌生人买单。你正在面对的就是这样的情况。这是个挺好的类比，大家干了杯。
So let me let me ask a follow-up question on this debt ceiling fight which is which is a game of chicken and the The country's economy might go off a cliff in the next month because Republicans Democrats can agree So Biden's position is I want a clean Debt ceiling increase no terms on it house Republicans have passed a debt ceiling increase but It contains things like a 1% cap on spending growth It clause back unspent COVID-19 relief funds and it would halt Biden's student debt forgiveness plan So Robert, I guess a question to you would be Would you negotiate like what would your posture to house Republicans be would you be willing to negotiate Because Biden is basically saying I will not negotiate at all So negotiate or not negotiate I guess that's my question to you. Yeah, you have to negotiate I'm not sure if he's posturing you know or what They have the negotiate they have to you know, they have to work out something that's good for our country And that you know and they're gonna blow sides are gonna have to give up something Oh, we have to you know, we have to put our country first and it's insane to play this game of chicken with a You know with this doing the stakes or so
让我问一个关于债务上限博弈的跟进问题，这场博弈可能会让国家经济在下个月崩溃，因为共和党和民主党无法达成一致。拜登的立场是，我希望债务上限提高干净利落，没有任何条件，国会共和党已经通过了债务上限提高，但其中包含了一些限制，如支出增长的1%上限，未用的COVID-19救济资金的条款以及将停止拜登的学生负债减免计划。罗伯特，我想问你的问题是，您会像什么样？你和众议院共和党人的立场是什么？你愿意谈判吗？因为拜登基本上说，我根本不会谈判。所以我的问题是，谈判还是不谈判？是的，你必须谈判。我不确定他是在装样子还是怎么样。他们必须谈判，必须达成对我们国家有益的协议。双方都必须做出一些让步。我们必须把我们的国家放在首位，与这场博弈玩弄是疯狂的，因为风险太大了。
I there's been a lot of talk Robert about the deep state the FBI DOJ CIA your family obviously having dealt with two tragic assassinations your father and your uncle Has dealt with his first hand in terms of just having the CIA Information about these assassinations released. I'm curious your position on some of the most radical proposals people have this election cycle of dismantling the FBI CIA DOJ aka the deep state do you believe there's a deep state and how would you as president deal with this intelligence Operation we have and then also personally What are your personal feelings on it?
大家一直在谈论深州（deep state），包括联邦调查局（FBI）、司法部（DOJ）和中央情报局（CIA），而你的家庭显然曾经历过两次悲剧性的暗杀，你的父亲和叔叔就是。在针对一些最激进的提案，比如解散FBI、CIA和DOJ，即所谓的深州问题上，我想知道你的立场。你认为是否存在深州问题？作为总统，你将如何处理我们目前的情报行动？此外，你个人对此有何感受？
Well? On the you know, I have you know, I have a pretty clear idea about how I would handle The intelligence agencies and in fact my father was thinking very deeply about that at the time my father Who believed is is you know first reaction when his brother was killed was that the CIA had killed him and in fact the first three calls he made On that day and you know, I was home at the time And John McCom the CIA was right across the street from my house And so John McCom was the CIA director you would come to our house and swim every day after work during the spring and summertime and my father called the CIA desk and talked to it to ask officer and said did your people do this? That was his first call any called Harry Louise Who is a Cuban? Who was one of the Cubans who had remained friendly with my family?
你问怎么样？我的确对如何处理情报机构有一个相当明确的想法。实际上，我父亲那时也在非常深入地思考这个问题。他曾经相信，他的兄弟被杀时，CIA 制造了这起事件。事实上，在那一天，他打的前三个电话都是询问这件事。当天我在家，而我的家就在 CIA 办公室的街对面，而 John McCom（时任 CIA 局长）在春夏季节下班后每天都会来我们家游泳。我父亲打电话给 CIA 办公室，询问那里的官员，问他们是否干了这件事。这是他的第一个电话，他还打了给一个名叫 Harry Louise 的古巴人，他是保持友好关系的那些古巴人之一。
I you know, well we were surrounded by Cubans growing up because But who were bay of big refugees my father had got them freed after a year and you know in the cashierous prisons and and um and my father and mother spent a lot of time finding houses for them schools integrating them to the US military finding jobs And so we were all raised very very closely with the Cuban community, but gradually They turned away from my family, but this One Cuban who had been been an engineer had fought with Castro And then turned against him when he can't become communist was very close friends with my father The second call that he made was to a Harry Louise and he said did Uh, did our people meaning the CIA people do this? and um and that was uh And so my father was thinking very very very Carefully about how to handle this CIA he had been you know, he had been essentially managing the CIA since he came into office
你知道吗，我们在成长过程中被古巴人包围着，因为他们是大湾区的难民，我父亲在一年后让他们获得了自由，你知道，在古巴监狱和咳嗽的大庭广众中，我的父母花了很多时间为他们寻找住房、学校，将他们融入美国军队，找到工作。因此，我们和古巴社区之间的联系非常紧密，但逐渐地，他们对我家疏远了。但是有一个曾经是工程师的古巴人曾经为卡斯特罗战斗过，后来反对共产主义，他跟我父亲非常要好。他打的第二个电话是给Harry Louise，他问：是我们的人（指中央情报局）干的吗？我的父亲非常仔细地考虑如何处理这个情报局，因为他从上任以来一直在管理情报局。
And he recognized that the problem and you know as I I talked about my speech and I think David on the show mentioned this that during the bay of big invasion I uncle realized that he had been lied to by By Charles Bell and Alan Dulles and Richard Bitts all the heads of the CIA as well as its joint chiefs And he came out In the middle of the invasion when it turned against them And he realized these these men were being killed on the beach and he said I want to take the CIA and shattered into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the wind So he recognized The function of the intelligence agencies had devolved And that they were they had become captive of the military industrial complex and The military contractors and their uh their function was essentially to provide our nation With a constant pipeline of new wars
他认识到的问题是，正如我在演讲中所讲的，以及节目中David所提到的，在巨大的入侵事件期间，我叔叔认识到，他被夏尔斯·贝尔、艾伦·杜勒斯和理查德·比茨等CIA的负责人以及联合参谋部欺骗了。当入侵行动逆转时，他在中途退出来，并意识到这些人正在被杀死在海滩上，他说，我想将CIA分成一千个碎片并散布到风中。因此，他认识到情报机构的职能已经退化，而他们已经成为军事工业复合体和军事承包商的俘虏。他们的职能本质上是为我们的国家提供不断增加战争的管道。
The fee the military industrial complex and the growth of the surveillance state And my father when he ran for president Pete Hamill who was one of his favorite newsmen asked him on the bus during two weeks before he died asked him what he what he was going to do about the CIA and he said what we need to do Is to we we need to remove the espionage division And the espionage branch from the plans division The plans of the vision the CIA is essentially the dirty tricks Provision that's the division the action-prefid division They do the assassinations they fix elections they do paramilitary operations black ops torture black sites all that stuff The espionage division and CIA was originally set up by Cuba by Truman as an espionage agency as being anage means Information gathering and analysis It's not violence. It's about information acquisition
这段话谈论了军工复合体的费用和监控国家的增长。我的父亲竞选总统时，他最喜欢的新闻工作者之一皮特·哈密尔在他去世前两周的巴士旅行中问他如何应对中央情报局，他说我们需要将间谍部门和计划部门分开。中央情报局的计划部门实际上是肮脏的伎俩部门，它负责行动前期的计划，包括暗杀、操纵选举、军事行动、黑操作、酷刑以及秘密监狱等。中央情报局的间谍部门最初是由杜鲁门建立的间谍机构，作用是信息收集和分析，与暴力无关。
And unfortunately the the the the cleandestine action division Was wagging the espionage dog So the function the espionage division was to to provide new actions things to do for the cleandestine division And then covering up their mistakes So there was never any accountability and what my father understood is that the espionage division should not be working for the for the cleandestine services They should be overseeing them and particularly doing accountability Uh-oh, you know what if the CIA Looks the way that the CIA looks at the Warner Rack is it was a success because we accomplished a mission of opposing Saddam Hussein But and you know that CIA was George Kenned who lied to President Bush and said it's a slam dunk So they got us to go in there and weapons of mass shaksh
不幸的是，这个秘密行动部门带领着间谍机构前进。所以，间谍部门的职能是为秘密行动部门提供新的行动方案，并掩盖他们的错误，因此从来没有任何问责。我父亲的理解是，间谍部门不应该为秘密行动服务工作。他们应该监督他们，特别是进行问责。哦，如果中央情报局按沃纳·拉克的方式来看，那是成功的，因为我们完成了反对萨达姆·侯赛因的任务。但是，你知道，那是一个谎言，由乔治·肯尼迪向布什总统说了一个胜利即将到来的保证。所以，他们让我们进去，找到了大规模杀伤性武器，但...
So as president would you rethink it and then Just as a final question. It's final follow up to that. Do you believe they murdered or were involved in the murder of your uncle? What would have you come to person?
作为总统，您会重新考虑这个问题吗？最后一个问题：您是否认为他们谋杀了您的叔叔或参与了此案件？您会如何看待这个问题？
Yes, they were definitely involved in the murder and you know in the 60 year cover up They're still not releasing the you know the papers that legally they have to release Um, but I don't think there's any doubt if you look at this This huge, you know mountain monumental mountain of evidence and confessions and you know so many people have confessed to their involvement and you know we understand the Um if you look I mean for anybody who has doubts about that I would recommend a book I Jim Douglas called the unspeakable Because I think he's done a better job Uh than anybody else that kind of assembling and distilling All of the millions and millions of documents that Uh have been released over the past 50 years And these things these revelations are released incrementally and so nobody really takes notice When you put them all together the story is very clear.
他们肯定参与了谋杀案，你知道在这60年的掩盖中，他们仍然没有公开那些他们法律上必须公开的文件。但是，如果你看看这些巨大的证据和认罪书，很多人已经承认了自己的参与，我们可以理解这个问题。如果有人对此持怀疑态度，我建议读一本叫《不可言说》的书，作者是Jim Douglas。因为我认为他比其他人更好地收集和梳理了过去50年公开的数百万个文件。这些发现是逐步公开的，所以没有人真正注意到。但当你把它们全部放在一起看时，故事非常明显。
So you you would definitely rethink The CIA the FBI DOJ you know the whole intelligence at the minimization. I think what you're saying as well as maybe you would also Released the documents that maybe would at least Provide some more transparency. I just wanted to build on that because you had a very provocative tweet Part of what you're talking about is accountability and we need data and transparency to have that There are people that have whistleblown. There are people that have leaked and I think it's fair to say that they've all been treated by the security apparatus in largely the exact same way But you tweeted recently about your desire to see some of those folks forgiven and pardoned Do you want to just take a few minutes just to talk about some of those folks that you think Has allowed us to actually see the truth if we want to see it and why you think that and what you think should be done with folks like that
你会重新考虑中央情报局、联邦调查局、司法部以及整个情报部门的最小化问题。我认为你所说的可能也包括公开文件，这至少可以提供更多的透明度。我想再进一步说一下，因为你发了一条非常引人注目的推文。你所说的部分是要求问责制，我们需要数据和透明度才能实现。有人已经揭露了内幕，有人已经泄露了消息，我认为可以公正地说，他们都被安全体系以相同的方式处理。但是你最近发推表达了对某些人的宽恕和赦免的愿望。你想花几分钟谈谈你认为那些人让我们看到了真相，如果我们想看到的话，以及你认为应该对这些人做些什么。
I mean Julian Assange is an example Julian Assange is a newspaper publisher. He published leaked documents, you know why are we I mean if I was any newspaper publisher in this country I Would be worried about that and now he can go to jail for life because he published leaked documents of great import to the American people of things that we should not have been secret that we should have known about um Revelations that affect our civil rights Affect our foreign policy affect things that we ever write to know and you know, it's it's really It it's strange that there's any support for his imprisonment among the press and I think the press is beginning to figure this out finally The most controversial of those figures is Edwin Snowden but Edwin Snowden um Released documents that showed us that we were all being spied upon Yeah, and that's important for Americans to know and in fact it was so important That congress passed laws based upon his revelations to protect the American people So why are we punishing the whistleblower rather than punishing the people who were you know who were illegally spying on us That's what we should be doing. We shouldn't be Uh, jailing dissenters in our country. We shouldn't be jelling whistleblowers. We should be jailing the people who breaks the law to keep this bipartisan
我是说，朱利安·阿桑奇就是一个例子。朱利安·阿桑奇是一位新闻出版商。他出版了泄露的文件，你知道为什么吗？如果我是这个国家的任何一位报纸出版商，我会因此感到担忧，现在他因为出版了对美国人民非常重要的泄密文件可以坐牢终身，这些文件中有一些事情本该不应该是秘密，而应该让我们知道的。这些泄密文件揭示了影响我们的公民权利、外交政策和其他我们应该知道的重要事情，你知道，支持他被监禁在媒体界中是很奇怪的，我认为媒体终于开始意识到这一点了。
最有争议的人物是爱德华·斯诺登，但爱德华·斯诺登泄露的文件显示我们都被监视了。是的，这对美国人民来说很重要，事实上，国会根据他的披露通过了法律来保护美国人民。所以，为什么我们要惩罚告密者而不是惩罚那些非法监视我们的人？这就是我们应该做的。我们不应该在我们的国家中监禁异议者。我们不应该监禁告密者。我们应该监禁那些违法以保持这种两党制的人。
Do you believe the deep state is acting to subvert the Trump presidency and that they are framing him on these three or four indictments that they are working on some that have dropped some that haven't do you believe there's a deep state conspiracy against Trump because you might be facing him
你相信深层政府正在破坏特朗普总统的职位，并且他们正在故意嫁祸于他，对他进行这三到四项指控中的一些，其中有些已经公开，有些尚未公开。你认为深层政府有阴谋去反对特朗普吗？因为你可能会面对他。
I don't use the word deep state. I mean I you know I You know, I've described how these uh bureaucracies function and it's not that It's not so much a group of people the kind of deep split state implies there's a group of people and it's kind of you know black coats and a smokey room pulling strings, but The corruption is systemic the these uh, you know, they all of these agencies are captive agencies
我不使用“深层国家”这个词。我的意思是，你知道的，我已经描述了这些官僚机构如何运作，这并不是什么“深层拆分的国家”。这意味着有一个人群，他们在黑暗的屋子里拉着线，但是这种腐败是系统性的。这些机构都是被监禁的机构。
The CIA is ultimately working for A for industry like the oil industry the coal industry and the military contractors and that they've always had that ties since the very beginning, you know, Alan dollars Who would work for Sullivan Gromwell and ended up doing coup d'etat's I'm half of his former clients like Texaco and United Fruit Texaco and BP and in Iran in 1953 Is former client United Fruit when one Jacob R. Bans in Guatemala tried to nationalize United Fruit, you know The CIA under dollars went over through the government to protect the interest of his former client So there's always been these ties to industry and the ties now and particularly the oil industry and the ties to To the military industrial contractors really drive The CIA action and CIA intelligence
中央情报局最终是为一些行业服务的，例如石油行业、煤炭行业和军事承包商，自从成立以来，他们一直有这种联系。你知道，艾伦·邓恩是为沙利文·格罗姆韦尔工作的，最终代表像得克萨斯联合石油和联合果汁这样的前客户在伊朗发动政变。联合果汁也是他曾经的客户，当时在危地马拉，雅各布·R·班斯试图将其国有化，而邓恩领导的中央情报局为保护这个前客户的利益越过政府。因此，中央情报局总是有这些与行业的联系，现在特别是与石油行业和军工承包商的联系，这些联系真正驱动了中央情报局的行动和情报工作。
And we have to you know, you have to stop And then this is systemic in all these agencies. I mean USDA is run by Cargill Smithfield on Santo Bobilgram John Tyson EPA is run when we sued EPA Uh, we got discovery documents That showed that the head of the Pesis I division just Rowland Had been secretly working for monsanto for a decade and you know Standing Nemo's back and forth with monsanto directing them. You need to kill this study. You need to kill that study And this unfortunately is not the exception. It is the rule
我们必须，你知道，你必须停下来。而且这在所有这些机构中都是系统性的。我的意思是，美国农业部由嘉吉、史密斯菲尔德、桑托博比尔格拉姆和约翰·泰森掌控，美国环保局在我们起诉美国环保局时，我们获得了探询文件，这些文件显示，Pesis I部门负责人罗兰德一直在为孟山都秘密工作了十年，不断与孟山都进行来回联系，并指导他们。你需要杀死这项研究，你需要杀死那项研究。不幸的是，这不是个例，而是规律。
Most of the people who work for those agencies are good citizens. They're good Americans. They're honest and their patriot But the people who tend to rise in those agencies and occupy these very very powerful keep positions from decades or years like Anthony Fauci 50 years Our people who are in the tank with industry And what we need to do is unravel that across the government and that's really what people say that's the deep state That really is what it's a systemic Corruption within our agencies that is driven by agency capture
大多数为这些机构工作的人是好公民。他们是优秀的美国人，诚实、爱国。但那些往往在这些机构中升迁到非常强大的职位上，如安东尼·福奇这样长达50年的人，则是与行业亲密合作的人。我们需要在整个政府中解开这个问题，这就是人们所说的“深层国家”。这实际上是我们机构内部的系统性腐败，是由机构占领驱动的。
Can we actually just talk about the coronavirus maybe pandemic for a second and I just want to tie in two concepts Sometimes again, there's a lot of mainstream misinformation about it There is a lot that came out about you particularly as it relates to vaccines I just want to give you an opportunity to set the record straight Just on what you think happened covid all that corruption your thought on vaccines the efficacy of our programs how we should change what we keep the same Just maybe a chance to clear the ear so that we can get some of the Gobbledy-gook on the internet set street
我们可以谈一下新冠状病毒大流行的情况，我想结合两个概念。有时候，关于这个问题，会有很多流行的错误信息。与疫苗有关的许多信息涉及到了您个人。我只是想给您一个机会澄清一下事实。您对新冠病毒和腐败现象的看法，您对疫苗的有效性和计划的看法，我们应该如何改变或保持不变，只是可能希望能够消除一些在互联网上的迷思。
I mean it's hard to you know I wrote a 250,000 paid book about it and I've written a couple of books and so it's hard to summarize you know what went wrong and in a um in a second but it's but essentially we had instead of a Public health response to what public health crisis we had a militarized and monetized response that was the inverse of what of Everything that you would want to do if you actually wanted to protect public health
我的意思是很难，你知道吗？我写了一本付费的25万字的书，还写了几本书，所以很难一下子概括出哪里出了问题。但实际上，我们应该采取的是公共卫生反应，应对公共卫生危机，而不是采取军事化和货币化的反应，这与你实际想要保护公共卫生所要做的完全相反。
We've known you know if you look at WHO protocols or the CDC protocol of the EU the NHS and Britain All those they all had protocols for how to manage the pandemic they all said unanimously You do not use lockdowns mass lockdowns you quarantine the sick You protect the vulnerable but you keep society moving because
如果您查看世卫组织、欧盟的CDC协议以及英国的国民保健服务等所有相关协议，我们都知道：它们无一例外地建议在疫情管理中不应采取大规模封锁，而应将患者隔离，保护弱势群体，同时保持社会运转。
the consequences of not do of shutting down society will be Cataclysmic beyond anything that the disease is going to impose Everybody knew that and so you know we had these these agencies that that had drilled for years and years uh this alternative You know militarized response And instead of you know doing what you want to do which is to get early treatment to people to have I mean you know
不关停社会的后果将是灾难性的，远超过疾病所能造成的任何影响，每个人都知道这一点，因此我们有这些机构多年来一直在进行这种另类的军事应对演练。与其想做的是为人们提供早期治疗，为人们提供更好的治疗，你却并未这样做。
We're we live in the agent the internet we should have had a A grid that connected all 15 million frontline doctors every country around the world And figured out what are you doing that works in your country you know and try and then Distilling that information processing and getting it to other doctors
我们所生活的时代是互联网时代，应该建立一个联网系统，将全世界1500万前线医生联系起来，了解各个国家所采用的有效治疗方法，并将这些信息汇总处理，然后传递给其他医生。
Well, we knew what was working we knew I've remector an hydroxychloric and we're working we knew that since 2004 Because NIH did the study that said hydroxychloric and obliterates coronavirus.
嗯，我们知道什么在起作用，我们知道羟氯喹和氯喹在起作用，我们知道这一点自2004年以来，因为美国国立卫生研究院进行的研究表明，羟氯喹可消灭冠状病毒。
We knew what would work at that time and what was the response. They the response was they could not allow early treatment to occur. Why? Because there's a little known federal law that says if there is a drug that is shown effective against the target disease it is ill I a drug that is proof for any purpose. It is illegal to issue on a I am allergic to use authorization for a vaccine.
我们知道当时什么方法有效，并得到了回应。他们的回应是他们不能允许早期治疗发生。为什么？因为有一个鲜为人知的联邦法律规定，如果有一种药物已被证明对目标疾病有效，那么它就是唯一被批准用于任何目的的药物。针对疫苗的使用授权如果被颁布则是非法的。
So if they had admitted that hydroxychloric on our ivermectin worked against On a virus it would have destroyed their whole hundred billion dollar vaccine you know enterprise So they had to kill early treatments.
所以，如果他们承认羟氯喹和伊维菌素对病毒有作用，那么就会摧毁他们价值百亿美元的疫苗体系。因此，他们必须扼杀早期治疗。
And they went after stuff that they knew worked they this was the first respiratory virus in history Where people would go to the hospital and they would test positive for coronavirus and be symptomatic They were sick. Hey, that's why they went to the hospital.
他们追求那些他们知道可行的方法，因为这是历史上第一次发生的呼吸道病毒，人们去医院检测呈阳性，并且有症状的情况。他们生病了。这也是为什么他们去了医院。
And the hospital would say to them there is no treatment. Go home till your lips turn blue and you can't breathe. And come back and we will give you two things that are gonna kill you I'm desivir and hydroxychloric and ventilation.
医院会告诉他们，没有治疗方法。让他们回家，等到唇色变蓝，呼吸困难。然后再回来，我们会给你用戴西韦和羟氯喹等两种东西，但这可能会致死，同时还需要进行呼吸机辅助治疗。
So people still look at in this country and if algae is a era I mean we were doing things a couple of miles from me And Malibu There were police pulling surfers out of the surf and giving them thousand dollar tickets and telling them to go home. And I'm out of the sunshine where where coronavirus doesn't spread and lock him in their home where it does.
所以人们仍然在这个国家关注着，如果藻类是一个时代的话，我的意思是我们离我几英里之外的马里布正在做一些事情。有警察在海滩上拦截冲浪者，给他们一张价值1000美元的罚单，并告诉他们回家去。而我在阳光下，那里冠状病毒不会传播，而那些在家中却会传播的人却被锁定在家里。
And every time they sent some one of these people home from the hospital sick it was a super spreader of that. Oh you look at our record of coronavirus and this is when nobody can explain who is you know defending Fauci etc. We had the highest body count in the world by far from corona virus. Oh, we have 4.2% of the world's population. We had 16% of the COVID deaths. How does anybody explain that?
每次他们派一些人从医院回家生病，这都是对疫情的大量传播。当我们看我们的新冠病毒记录时，没有人可以解释谁在为福奇辩护。我们的新冠病毒死亡率遥遥领先于世界上其他国家。我们人口占世界总人口的4.2%，却有16%的COVID死亡人数。有人能解释这种情况吗？
And you go to nations that didn't do what we told them Nigeria. Nigeria is the highest malaria burden in the world So it everybody everybody gets hydroxychloric and once a week they call it Sunday Sunday Everybody in the country takes it on Sunday They had the highest river winds burden so I have the countries on Ivermectin Nigeria never had an epidemic It had a death rate in Nigeria of 14 people per million population Our death rate 3000 per million population.
你去了我们没有告诉他们该怎么做的国家，比如尼日利亚。尼日利亚是世界上疟疾负担最重的国家。所以每个人每周都要服用羟氯喹，周日周日，全国人民都在周日服用。他们曾经承受着最高的河流蠕虫负担，所以我给尼日利亚使用伊维菌素。尼日利亚从未发生过流行病。尼日利亚的死亡率为每百万人口14人，我们的死亡率为每百万人口3000人。
Blacks in our countries were dying at 3.6 times the rate of whites Why were American blacks dying in Nigeria and blacks weren't And then you go to Haiti Haiti had a and by the way in Nigeria had 1.3% vaccination rate 80 had 1.4% vaccination rate And they had a death rate of 15 per million population. These are the countries that don't even Fauci and Bill Gates said We got to get them vaccinated.
我们国家的黑人死亡率比白人高出3.6倍。为什么美国黑人在尼日利亚死亡率高，而黑人不是？然后，你去海地，海地只有1.4％的接种率，尼日利亚只有1.3％的接种率，但他们的死亡率每百万人口为15人。这些都是福奇和比尔 · 盖茨说我们必须使他们接种疫苗的国家。
We got to do whatever you can because they're gonna get totally wiped out because they're poverty and guess right. They never had a pandemic across Africa. There was a 10% vaccination rate and guess what. They had a death rate of about 340.
我们必须尽一切可能去帮助那些处于贫困与猜测中的人，因为如果不这样做，他们将会被彻底毁灭。在整个非洲从未经历过一场大流行病。当时只有10%的人接种了疫苗，结果死亡率高达340。
Some people think that the death rate here was overstated because of incentives to do that do you believe that as well? Yeah, so maybe part of that death rate is it was Over and said but you believe looking back on this that Fauci As well as the pharma companies Bill Gates investments in those areas that led us down a Path you'll recall at the medical industrial the farming industrial complex you believe the farming industrial complex dictated our response to coronavirus and then freebred I'll let you jump in.
有些人认为这里的死亡率被夸大了，因为存在这样的激励，您也相信吗？是的，可能部分死亡率被夸大了，但是您回顾一下的话，您认为Fauci以及制药公司、比尔·盖茨在这些领域的投资，让我们走上了一条错误的道路。您记得医疗产业和农业产业复合体，您认为农业产业复合体决定了我们对冠状病毒的应对，然后freebred你可以加入讨论。
Yeah, but do you believe that that that's the I don't have any question I believe this was you know it was as I said It was a military response. I mean looking who was running The look at who was running the coronavirus response wouldn't you think it would be HHS.
是的，但是你相信这是我没有任何问题的事情吗？我相信这是一个军事回应。我是说，看看谁在负责冠状病毒的应对工作，你不认为应该是HHS吗？
Well when they out one warp speed Had to present its declassify its organizational charts to show to the FDA committee called verbaq when they demanded it And warp speed went in and showed me organizational chart charts The the the the agency running warp speed and pandemic response was not HHS It was NSA national security agency Avril Haynes is the director of national intelligence so she was running operation warp speed And who was manufacturing it wasn't Pfizer Moderna it was 140 military contractors.
当Warp Speed项目被推出时，FDA委员会Verbaq要求它公开其组织架构。Warp Speed便出示了其组织架构图。结果显示，运营Warp Speed和应对疫情的机构并非HHS，而是NSA（国家安全局）。国家情报总监Avril Haynes负责Warp Speed项目。此外，制造疫苗的并非辉瑞、莫德纳，而是140家军方承包商。
Who you know headlines ready and you say you know and then you know all of this clamp down on on Civil rights that we saw the the censorship On the closing the churches the you know that the closing of the right to assemble the banning of jury trials against pharmaceutical companies.
你有备好的标题，说你认识一些人。然后你就知道所有这些对公民权利的限制，我们看到了对言论审查、关闭教堂、取消集会权利、禁止对制药公司的陪审团审判等限制。
They crushed the seventh amendment the first amendment. They closed down 3.3 million businesses with no due process no just compensation. They they obliterated the fourth amendment right to you know to against warrantless searches and seizures With all these intrusive You know you you you you show your. medical records to go out of your house Or to get into a public building freeberg what what is correct here?
他们摧毁了宪法第七修正案和第一修正案。他们没有进行正当程序，也没有进行公正补偿就关闭了330万家企业。他们彻底毁掉了宪法第四修正案中关于不受无搜索令和扣押的权利。所有这些侵犯了个人的隐私，比如你需要出示你的医疗记录才能出门，或者要进入公共建筑物，这是什么意思呢？
Do you believe in what is incorrect about Roberts? What's Roberts saying if anything? Well look I mean there's obviously a lot of things I could say by the way I was on the executive team at monsanto for a couple of years So you know I one one thing I will say is I sat on the at the table facing the EPA and the USDA and certainly didn't feel like a very cozy relationship in at least what I saw in the few years I was there It was it did feel like a very kind of independent regulatory and challenging frankly regulatory process at monsanto
你相信关于罗伯茨的错误传言吗？罗伯茨说了什么，如果有的话？好吧，我的意思是，显然有很多话我可以说，顺便说一下我曾在孟山都担任执行团队的一员。所以你知道我想说的一件事就是，我曾经与EPA和USDA面对面坐在一起，但至少在我在那里的这几年中，我并没有感到非常舒适的关系。感觉孟山都的监管程序是非常独立和具有挑战性的。
Had to manage and deal with and go through and in releasing new products You know, I don't think that this notion that there were kind of embedded parties that Did our whims and wishes really plays true at least for my experience sitting there And I'm not a long time on santo executive I built a software company sold it to monsanto and sat on the exact team for a few years after the acquisition but I guess the the more Kind of I think bigger framing question for you Robert is really around vaccines in general I think you're your commentary around the the covid response And you know the influencing forces there Didn't start with covid right I mean you've you've been a kind of You know outspoken voice on vaccines in general for some time Is that a fair statement because I think that that's part of the media narrative around your history and legacy Is that you have been kind of outspoken on vaccines on the You know the the risks and the and the effects that you that you consider to be kind of I don't know if it's implied or explicit with respect to the use and and wide adoption of vaccines over time Maybe you could share a little bit about your broader perspective in the years leading up to covid And how that then kind of informed your point of view specifically on covid
在发布新产品时，必须管理、处理和经历一些事情。你知道，我认为这种嵌入式派对的概念并没有真正反映出我的经验，因为我在桑托高管团队中的时间并不长。我建立了一家软件公司，将其出售给了孟山都，并在收购后的几年中担任高管团队的职务。但我认为，对于你罗伯特而言，更大的框架问题实际上是关于疫苗的。我认为你对covid反应的评论和影响力并不是从covid开始的，我的意思是，你在疫苗方面一直是一个坦率的声音。这是一个公正的说法吗？因为我觉得这是媒体关于你的历史和遗产的一部分的叙述。你一直对疫苗发表坦率的意见，关注疫苗使用和广泛采用可能带来的风险和影响。也许你可以分享一下在covid之前几年里你的广泛观点，以及这如何在特定的covid观点上影响了你的观点。
You know my objective is not to vaccines. I'm not any vaccine. I fully vaccinated my kids were fully vaccinated I wish at this point that I had not done that because I know enough about them now I principal objective is that vaccines um in this the childhood vaccines are immune from pre licensing safety testing Of the 72 when I got was a kid I got three vaccines My children got 72 doses of 16 vaccines And the vaccines are the one medical product that does not have to go through Policiba controlled trials where you test and expose versus unexplosed population right a licensor And that there's a number of historical reasons for that to come out of the kind of the military Uh, beginning is the these vaccines were regarded as um as national security defenses against Biological attacks on our countries so they wanted to make sure of the Russians attacked us with anthrax Or some of their biological agent they could quickly formulate and deploy Vaccine at 200 million Americans with no regulatory impediments So they they call them biologics rather than medicines and exempted body of objects from pre licensing safety trial I've litigated on that it should not one of them has ever been tested pre licensor against so nobody knows What the you know you can say that the Vaccine is effective against the target disease But you can't say that it's not causing worse problems Now I'll just summarize this story
我的目标不是疫苗。我不是反疫苗者。我的孩子们完全接种了疫苗，但是现在我有足够的了解，我希望当初没有这样做。我的首要目标是针对儿童疫苗，它们在获得许可前没有进行免疫试验。当我还是孩子时，我接受了三种疫苗。我的孩子接受了16种疫苗的72剂。疫苗是唯一不需要通过针对测试和暴露与未暴露人群的对照试验的医疗产品，没有监管试验的法规。历史原因是它们起源于军事，这些疫苗被认为是国家安全的防御工具，以防止生物攻击。因此，它们被称为生物制品而非药品，并免除了前许可安全试验。我已经进行了诉讼，认为这些疫苗不应该被免除安全试验，但尚未有一种疫苗进行过前许可安全试验。因此，我们无法确定疫苗是否会造成更糟糕的问题。总之，我的观点是疫苗的效果针对目标疾病，但无法保证不会引发更严重的问题。
In the the vaccine schedule exploded in 1986 The vaccine industry succeeded in getting Ronald Reagan to sign a law and my uncle was also you know a group that was pressured By why at which was losing 20 dollars in downstream liabilities On every vaccine it made because it was lawsuits For every dollar that it made and they and and probably they went to Reagan and said we're gonna get out of the vaccine business And you're gonna be left without a vaccine supply unless you give us full immunity from liability and Reagan you know reluctantly sign that And so today no matter how Negligent the company no matter how grievous your injury no matter how reckless or conduct you cannot sue them That caused it gold rush because now you got a product But That there's no downstream liability Europe immune from that
在1986年，疫苗接种计划爆炸了。疫苗行业成功地说服了罗纳德·里根签署了一项法律，我的叔叔也是一个被迫接受压力的群体。这是因为在每一种疫苗製造中，百威公司都要承担约20美元的下游责任。因为每赚到一美元就需要被起诉了。他们可能去找里根，说我们将退出疫苗业务，如果您不给予我们完全豁免责任，您将面临没有疫苗供应的局面，里根不情愿地签署了这一点。因此，现在无论这些公司有多么疏忽，无论您的伤害有多么大，无论他们的行为有多么草率，都无法起诉他们。这导致了一个淘金热，因为现在你有了一个产品，但却没有任何下游责任。 您免于这个责任。
There's no upstream safety testing so that's a $250 million saving And there's no marketing or advertising cause so because On the federal government's gonna mandate this product to the 76 million American children where they like it or not And there's no better product in the world and so there was a gold rush and instead of three vaccines We quickly ended up with 72 and now we're going to you know toward 80 right now And there's no end to sight and a lot of those vaccines were unnecessary. They're not even for casual disease
没有上游的安全测试，这样可以节省2.5亿美元的成本。也没有营销或广告，因为联邦政府将强制要求这种产品供应给7600万美国儿童，无论他们是否喜欢。世界上没有更好的产品，所以出现了一股淘金热，从最初的三种疫苗，我们很快拥有了72种，现在我们甚至走向了80种。没有看到尽头，很多这些疫苗都是不必要的，甚至没有针对常见的疾病。
These years what happened in night beginning in 1989 We experienced a chronic disease epidemic in this country It is unlike anything in the history We went from having 6% of Americans affected by chronic disease to 54% by 2006 and what do I mean by chronic disease? I mean neurological disease that I never saw when I was a kid 80 DAD HD, especially language like tics to red syndrome um ASD autism narcolepsy all these suddenly appeared autism rates went from one in 10,000 to one in every 34 1989 was the year this began The allergic disease phenod allergies suddenly appeared um food allergies exima suddenly appeared And it relaxes and has mob you know which had been around But it exploded and then autoimmune disease is like rheumatoid arthritis and juvenile diabetes I never knew a kid I had 11 siblings about 70 cousins I never knew anybody with any of these diseases and son why do five my kids have allergies? so uh
自1989年开始的夜晚发生了什么事情？我们在这个国家经历了一场慢性疾病流行病，这是史无前例的。我们从只有6％的美国人患慢性病到2006年达到了54％。慢性疾病是指我小时候从未见过的神经疾病，如80年代出现的DAD，HD、所有类似颤动综合征的语言、自闭症、嗜睡症等，这些都突然出现了。自闭症发病率从1/10,000上升到1/34，1989年是这个开始的年份。过敏疾病现象如芬达过敏、食物过敏、湿疹也突然出现。而类风湿性关节炎和青少年糖尿病等自身免疫疾病，我小时候身边的11个兄弟姐妹，以及大约70个表兄弟姐妹，我从未见过任何有这些疾病的人，但现在为什么我的五个孩子都有过敏症呢？
So then If you look at the manufacturer's inserts for those 72 vaccines There's 420 diseases Had have been associated with the vaccines that are listed And including every one of those diseases that went epidemic in 1989 And this is the country which the most happily vaccinated and this was happening here unlike any other country in the world And so we have this you know and and you know they would it's good for the pharma This pharma now makes 60 billion on the vaccines when I was a kid they were making 250 million now They make 60 billion a year plus 100 billion from COVID vaccine
那么，如果你查看这72种疫苗的生产商插图，会发现列出了与这些疫苗相关的420种疾病，包括在1989年爆发的所有疾病。而这个国家最乐意接种疫苗，这种情况只发生在世界上其他任何一个国家都没有。因此，制药公司受益匪浅。现在，制药公司从疫苗中获得600亿美元的收入，而当我还是个孩子时，他们只能赚取2.5亿美元。此外，他们还从COVID疫苗中获得了1000亿美元的收入。
Friedberg do you believe that these vaccines are over prescribed and are part of The rise in ADHD and and all this litany of diseases. I'm just asking Friedberg who's our resident scientist here do you believe this? You know explicitly as a scientist I'm curious. I don't think there's direct evidence supporting that relationship I think that there's a lot of environmental factors that have been driving changes in You know the rate of problems without immunity it relates to our food products our food system It relates to environmental chemistry like Robert has talked about generally. I think there's a lot of environmental conditioning that's caused this rise in in in problems in human.
弗里德伯格，你认为这些疫苗被过度开处方，是导致注意力不集中症（ADHD）和其他种种疾病增加的一部分吗？我只是问问resident scientist弗里德伯格，你是否认为如此？作为一名科学家，我非常好奇。我认为没有直接的证据支持这种关系，我认为有许多环境因素推动了我们免疫问题的变化，与我们的食品产品和食品系统有关，与罗伯特所谈论的环境化学有关。我认为有许多环境条件导致了人类问题的增加。
I interrupt for a second because I don't think it's solely the vaccines. Our children today are just winning or 100 toxic soup uh, but there's a timeline and actually I talked to colleges that I've used many my lawsuits probably the most famous in the country Phil Landrigan looked at the timeline of the explosion of all these chronic diseases And he said there's only a finite number of things that have caused it you know one is life to say Things that web became ubiquitous against in every demographic beginning and around 1993 1989 Um one of Ms. Glyves ain't near Nikitaway I've passed it size pf. O.A.s cell phones ultra-sat and he made the whole list I and so it's a finite number And the question is and vaccines are part of that and you know it is suspicious because the vaccines list all of these aside effects now
我中断一下，因为我不认为仅仅是疫苗的问题。我们今天的孩子面临着各种各样的有害物质，但是有一个时间线，我和一些大学接触过，我的诉讼案可能是全国最著名的，菲尔·兰德里根看过了所有这些慢性病的爆发时间线，他说只有有限的一些因素导致了这些问题，比如，网络的普及开始于1993年左右，在各个人口群体中兴起，还有激光、手机和超声等一长串有害物质。因此，问题是疫苗是否是其中的一部分。很可疑，因为疫苗名单上列出了所有这些副作用。
I've I put together books You know one of my books on this subject on connecting these As 14 hunter references and 400 studies digested so the science out there is pretty clear but We get this NIH refused to study these things Because it knows that Whatever wherever they follow the dots is gonna end up with a big shot And so they simply have stopped studying them and they've turned themselves into an incubator from the pseudocoproducts And they don't do this kind of basic research
我编写了几本书，其中一本就是关于如何连接这些14个猎人参考和400项研究的。因此，现有的科学结论非常明确，但是 NIH 拒绝研究这些内容，因为他们知道，无论他们在哪里追踪这些线索，最终都会涉及到一个重要的问题。因此，他们停止研究这些内容，并将自己转变为假科学产品的孵化器，不再进行这种基础研究。
I want to just give you guys one example The most common vaccine in the world is called the DTP vaccine diphtheria tetanus and tussus We gave it in this country and beginning around 79 It was killing or Causing severe brain injury and one out of every 300 kids who got it You see a study funded by NIH that found it so they got rid of it That's what caused all the lawsuits and they eventually precipitated the passage of the vaccine We stopped it here. They stopped in Europe but Bill Gates and WHO are still giving it to 161 million African children every year It's the most popular vaccine on earth Bill Gates says publicly it saved 30 million lives He went to the Danish government and said we've saved 30 million lives. We'll use support this program in 2017 The Danish said show me the study that shows that it saved all those lives He couldn't do it so they went down and they conducted a study in West Africa with a Danish operator all these health clinics And they looked at 30 years of data And as it turned out in a nation called Kenny Bissau Half the kids in that country at the age two months had received the vaccine and half had not It was a perfect natural experiment And they looked at 30 years of data and what they found was that The kids who received the vaccine were not dying of diphtheria tendus and protitis But girls who received the vaccine were dying At 10 times the rate of unvaccinated girls and they were not dying of anything ever anybody ever associated with the vaccine They were dying of diphtheria Bill Hartzia malaria, Anemia, minor cuts and scrapes and mainly pulmonary respiratory disease and pneumonia And what the researchers concluded and this was a study funded by the Danish government And of an artist which is a vaccine company and the scientists were all pro-vaccine The same thing with the AESAD is this vaccine is killing more people than the disease ever were Nobody knew it because nobody associated the people who were dying because they were dying all these different things That were only the unvaccinated kids so the vaccine had saved them From diphtheria tendus and protitis about it at ruin their immune system So that they could not defend themselves against other diseases and that's the danger Of not having placebo controlled trials prior to introducing the product particularly when you're a maned in a product for healthy people
我只想给大家举一个例子。世界上最常用的疫苗叫做DTP疫苗，用于预防白喉、破伤风和百日咳。该疫苗于1979年在我国开始使用，却导致每300个接种者中就有一个人死亡或严重脑损伤。美国国立卫生研究院（NIH）对此进行了一项研究，发现问题严重，于是停止了该疫苗的使用。这也引发了许多诉讼，最终促成了疫苗法案的通过，我国停用了这种疫苗。欧洲也停用了，但是比尔·盖茨和世卫组织仍然每年向1.61亿非洲儿童接种该疫苗，这也是地球上最受欢迎的疫苗。比尔·盖茨公开表示，该疫苗拯救了3000万人的生命。他曾去丹麦政府说，我们拯救了3000万人的生命，我们会在2017年支持这个项目。但丹麦政府要求他提供证明，证明这种疫苗确实拯救了那么多人的生命，他却无法证明。于是他们在西非进行了一项研究，在肯尼比绍这个国家，半数两个月大的儿童接种了该疫苗，另一半没有接种，这是一个完美的自然实验。研究人员研究了30年的数据，结果发现，接种该疫苗的儿童没有死于白喉、破伤风和百日咳，但接种了疫苗的女孩死亡率比未接种的女孩高10倍，而且她们不是死于与该疫苗有关的任何疾病。她们主要死于白喉、疟疾、贫血、轻微伤口、呼吸系统疾病和肺炎。研究人员得出的结论是，该疫苗杀死的人比疾病所杀的人还要多，由于人们没有将这些死亡事件和接种该疫苗联系起来，所以没有人知道它的危险性。疫苗拯救了他们免于白喉、破伤风和百日咳，但却破坏了他们的免疫系统，使他们无法抵御其他疾病，这就是没有在推出产品之前进行安慰剂对照试验的危险，尤其是针对健康人群的产品。
Let's with our remaining time here move on to energy You end the environment you've got an incredible track record I remember growing up in New York the amazing work you did For the watershed project and I'll let you expand upon that in a moment But the only confounding thing I found in your position and I'm curious if it's changed or not is that you spend decades trying to close the Indian point nuclear power plant In a time when clearly nuclear power is gotten safer and is Clearly I think we're the world believes and certainly everybody who's on this panel believes nuclear is a key point in the transition To renewable so what is your actual position? Explain it to us as basically as you can on nuclear Power and do you regret or have you read thought your position on Indian point?
让我们在我们在这里剩余的时间里转向能源和环境问题。你有令人难以置信的杰出业绩，我记得在纽约长大时，你为水源保护项目所做的惊人工作。但唯一令我困惑的是你在数十年中一直试图关闭印第安点核电站，在当今时代，核能清晰地变得更加安全，显然，整个世界均认为核能是可再生能源转型的关键点。所以你的实际立场是什么？请你尽可能简单明了地向我们解释一下你对核能量的立场，你是否后悔或重新考虑过你对印第安点的立场？
No, I mean any important is the leasing tritium and the odds every day. Though I don't see how you can say it safe and you know they still haven't figured out what to do with the waste. They're now storing it, you know, it's it's 18 miles from mid-diamond hadn't.
不，我的意思是租赁氚和每天的几率都非常重要。虽然我不知道你如何说它是安全的，你知道他们仍然没有想出该如何处理这些废料。你知道，他们现在正在储存它，距离钻石市中心仅18英里。
Um, if a you know the the shack Where they were stored storing The fuel rods at the structural integrity of a came art. A terrorist attack against it would you know would basically render New York In a have uninhabited for you know the next 5,000 years or so so to have To put to put something that risky so closed and you know 10 million people doesn't make any sense.
嗯，如果你知道那个小屋，他们在那里存放着结构完整性很差的燃料棒。一次针对它的恐怖袭击会基本上使纽约在接下来的大约5,000年内无法居住，所以把这么危险的东西放在如此接近1000万人口的地方是没有任何意义的。
Now New York power I'm all for it if they can ever make it safe. Well, if they ever make it economical and it's not me saying it's not safe. It's the insurance industry. They can't get an insurance policy. If they can't get an insurance policy and I would say I don't want.
如果纽约的能源可以安全可靠地使用，我完全支持。但是，如果它不能经济实惠，而且不是我在说不安全，而是保险业。他们无法获得保险政策。如果他们无法获得保险政策，我会说我不想。
But the nuclear American nuclear industry. I mean you go look at what Fukushima. They're poisoning the Pacific every day with huge amounts of really deadly radiation and they and out their only solution to it is to suck the water out of the groundwater and stored in these big tanks and if you just go on the internet and look at a picture of the Fukushima water tanks. And they go on to the horizon and there's no end to it.
但是美国核能产业。我的意思是你去看一下福岛的情况。他们每天都在用大量非常致命的辐射毒害太平洋，他们唯一的解决方案就是从地下水中抽取水并储存在这些大水箱中。如果你上网搜索一下福岛的水箱照片，可以看到它们一直延伸到地平线，没有尽头。
Robert, can I just make a point? The thing with nuclear that's worth separating is it's not the fundamental technology there that's broken in either example that you use but it's the profited motive that caused both the industrial engineering of both plants to be subpar because Fukushima for example was engineered not to the seismic levels that you really needed or elevation even conceiting all that.
罗伯特，我可以说一句吗？关于核能的事情有一点需要区分的是，在你举的两个例子中，出现问题并不是因为核能技术本身存在缺陷，而是由于追求利润的动机导致两个工厂的工业工程水平不佳。例如，福岛核电站的工程设计并没有考虑到地震等因素，甚至比预期的高程低。
Here's what I would say is that you know in our country There's not the nuclear is regarded as so dangerous and they can't get an insurance. So the industry had to go to Congress in a sleazy legislative maneuver in the middle of the night and get the price Anderson Ag pass so that there so that to shift their accident burden onto the American public.
这是我想说的，就是在我们国家，核能被认为是非常危险的，它们无法得到保险。所以，该行业不得不采取卑鄙的立法手段，在半夜向国会寻求帮助，并获得了价格安德森法案的通过，从而将其事故责任转嫁给美国公众。
So if their plant goes up and I and I was 10 miles from that plant and I'm gonna have to pay for it. So I don't think that's free market capitalism. I believe in free markets and I can tell you this there is no public utility on the face of the earth I will build one of those plants without massive public subsidies not one nobody will ever do it and then they have to store the waste for the next 30,000 years which is five times the length of recorded human history and if you tell me how that you know if they had to amortize that rate up front.
如果他们的工厂发生事故，而我与该工厂相隔10英里，我将不得不为此付款。因此，我认为这不是自由市场资本主义。我相信自由市场，但我可以告诉你，在这个世界上，没有任何公用事业会建造这样的工厂而没有大规模的公共补贴，没有人会这样做。此外，他们还必须储存废料30,000年，这是人类历史记录长度的五倍，如果他们必须提前分摊费用，告诉我如何处理。
There's no way anybody do it number number two or three or four whatever I've gotten to. It cost now between I and 16 billion dollars to build a nuclear power plant. Just the construction cost and then you got to get the technicians and then you've got to get you know the waste.
没人可能完成我所涉及的第二个、第三个或第四个任务。建造一个核电站现在的成本在10亿到16亿美元之间，仅仅是施工成本。还要聘请技术人员，处理核废料等事项。
This was a regular outage isn't all of this. There's no way that it could compete in a free market. I believe in free market capitalism. I am a radical Free market here. I believe that our energy systems should reflect the marketplace and they right now you can build a solar plant for a billion dollars in gigawatt.
这次的停电是常规的，并没有什么特殊的。在自由市场竞争中，它是没有竞争力的。我相信自由市场资本主义，我是一个激进的自由市场主义者。我认为我们的能源系统应该反映市场情况，现在你可以花十亿美元建造一个千瓦级的太阳能电站。
You can build a wind plant for 1.2 billion dollars in gigawatt. A coal plant will cost you about three and a half billion dollars at gigawatt and then you have to pay for the fuel. I cutting down the mountains of West Virginia Poisoning 22,000 miles of streams Burning you know putting mercury that gets into every fresh water fish in America Sterilizing the lakes of the Appalachians if they had to internalize that cause.
你可以花12亿美元建造一个1 GW的风电站。而对于一个相同功率的煤电站，成本大约是35亿美元，并且你还需要为燃料付费。如果把风电站建在西维吉尼亚山区，就需要砍伐山林，造成2.2万英里的河流污染。同时，烧煤会释放汞，汞会进入美国的每一条淡水鱼，同时也会导致阿巴拉契亚山区的湖泊受到消毒处理。如果这些成本需要内部化，那么煤电站的成本将极高。
Coal which says is that you know, it's for nuke which says it's too cheap to meter. It turns out it's the most expensive way to boil a pot of water that's ever been to fire. I'm just trying to make the point that if you look at the levelized cost of energy now. What you're saying is exactly why solar and wind are winning. It's just so much cleaner.
煤炭说的是，你知道，核电说它价格太便宜了，根本不需要计量。结果证明，煮一壶水最贵的方式是用火烧它。我只是想表达一点，如果你现在看电能的平均成本的话，我们可以发现太阳能和风能之所以胜出，就是因为它们更加环保。
It makes so much more sense. There's no fuel cause and if the impediment is Distribution is that we don't have a grid system that can effectively, you know, work a straight of variable power. And that's what we let me let me provide a counter that maybe it's not about distribution but it's about scaling production capacity.
这是更有意义的。没有燃料问题，如果阻力在于我们没有一个能够有效地处理不同功率的电网系统。而这就是让我提出一个反驳的理由，也许问题不在于分配，而在于提升生产能力的规模。
So you know if you look over nearly any historical time scale since we've had Industrial energy production on earth for every one percent increase in GDP per capita you see a roughly 1.2 percent increase in energy consumption per capita. And so if you forecast out by the end of the century the GDP per capita estimates in the US and around the world.
你知道吗，自从地球上有工业能源生产以来，几乎在任何历史时间尺度上，每人均国内生产总值（GDP）增加1%都会导致每人均能源消耗增加大约1.2%。因此，如果你预测本世纪末美国和全球的人均GDP估计值，就可以看出其对应的能源消耗量。
We need to increase global energy production by roughly You know anywhere from five to ten x and you know the current system of pulling carbon out of the ground and burning it up and pulling heat energy out of it doesn't scale doesn't make sense obviously put aside the carbon effect problem.
我们需要将全球能源生产增加至大约五到十倍，而目前的从地下提取碳并将其燃烧，从中提取热能的系统不具备可扩展性和显然的意义，当然，这里不考虑碳效应问题。
And there appears to be you know a reasonable chance. of a pretty serious material shortage for renewable sources By the middle of next decade So what do you think is the right answer to long-range energy security and what sort of technology should we be embracing And do you think that they scale fast enough to kind of allow us to have our economy grown the way that it needs to support The the population demands over the next century I mean, I'm agnostic about the energy sources and I think you need it
在接下来的十年中期，可再生能源面临着相当严重的材料短缺的相对较大的可能性。那么，针对长期能源安全，你认为正确的答案是什么，我们应该采用什么样的技术？你认为这些技术的规模发展足够快吗，以使我们的经济能够满足未来世纪的人口需求的增长？我的观点是，我对能源来源持中立态度，我认为你需要它。
You know you have to be eclectic about it and a lot of them are Are you know make sense locally, but we we have enough energy we have enough wind energy In North Dakota North Dakota's windiest place on earth outside of the Arctic North Dakota Montana and Texas we have enough wind energy to produce five times the amount of our entire grid um The problem is The North Dakota wind farmer cannot get his product to market Because it dissipates in a you know, we have an antique An art antiquated grid system That simply will not efficiently move electrons across country and we need a DC grid system that you know With off ramps and the big cities etc that can do that In North Dakota if you have an acre of farmland It's worth about 300 bucks if you put a wind turbine on it. It's worth about 32 hundred bucks So every farmer in North Dakota wants to put wind turbines in their cornfield and the problem is they cannot get that energy to market That is the only choke point And if we and the same is true, you know and uh and you know, we have great solar power in this country um We we have you know, we have an abundance of of renewable energy in this country and the power of the problem is The incumbents were were were operating on rules under rules that were written by the incumbents The reward the dirtiest filthyest most poisonous most toxic fuels from hell rather than to cleat cheap clean green All some fuels from heaven and we ought to reverse that and and make it make them all competitive seems like technology and economics Have reverse that in a way.
你知道你必须对此持有折中的态度，很多本地的都有他们的道理，但是我们在北达科他州有足够的能源，有足够的风能，北达科他州是地球上风能最充足的地方之一，除了北极地区，北达科他州、蒙大拿州和德克萨斯州的风能足够生产五倍于我们全网的电力。但问题是，北达科他州的风力发电厂无法将产品送到市场上，因为我们的电网系统过时了，不能有效地将电子传输到全国，需要一个有下站和大城市等的直流电网系统。在北达科他州，如果您拥有一英亩的农田，价值约为300美元，但如果在上面安装一台风力涡轮机，则价值约为3200美元。因此，北达科他州的每个农民都想在他们的玉米田里安装风力涡轮机，问题是他们无法将能源输送到市场，这是唯一的瓶颈。
同样道理适用于我们这个国家的太阳能电力，我们这个国家拥有丰富的可再生能源，但问题在于，现有的主导者是在现有规则下运营，而这些规则是由主导者制定的，而不是为了推广清洁、环保和安全而制定的最佳规则。我们应该扭转这一情况，使它们都具备竞争性，技术和经济学似乎已经在某种程度上扭转了这种状况。
Yeah, one last question on this so as president would you support initiatives That could advance and allow approval of safe nuclear fission Production systems to be built here in the US Well, I will like like I say I support new And new technologies of new that are safe, you know, where they but but as long as they can compete in a marketplace You show me and by by the way, I think we should be doing science even when there's no, you know I mean economic end to us. Oh, we should be looking at this stuff But I would not promote new if it's not competitive in the marketplace and it's you know and and that means You know cleaning up your mess after yourself, which you know is a lesson. We were all supposed to learn in kindergarten And if they show us what they're gonna do with the ways how they're gonna internalize their cause Rather than what they're doing now, which is to externalize their cause and internalize their profits
作为总统，您是否支持倡导和批准在美国建造安全的核裂变发电系统的倡议？嗯，我会像我已经说过的那样，支持新的和安全的技术，只要它们能在市场上竞争。你给我看看，顺便说一句，我认为即使在没有经济利益的情况下，我们也应该进行科学研究。哦，我们应该研究这些东西。但是，如果这些新技术在市场上没有竞争力，那么我不会支持它们，这意味着你需要清理自己留下的垃圾，这是我们在幼儿园时就该学会的教训。如果他们向我们展示他们打算如何内化他们的成本，而不是现在所做的，即外化他们的成本并内部化他们的利润，那将是好的。
Okay, we have covered a lot of territory and I hate to get to uh Controversial ones like culture wars, but it's gonna come up in the presidential election I personally don't think this is what's important in the presidential election I think the fiscal stuff the energy stuff The the wars and political stuff we've discussed today are much more important but I'm curious you're take on The issues around Disney, DeSantis, Trans, uh, and this cohort of issues which have Become an obsession it seems between Certain members or certain political parties or both parties the media And certainly it's taken over a lot of discussions amongst the generation on social media What's your take on all this and when you get caught up in these debates and the presidential debates About trans athletes as put one example do you think a trans Woman who was a biological male should be able to be put in a Female prison do you think they should be able to play on a female basketball team and change with a bunch of 15 year old girls in a high school locker room I've already had first one as a desk Disney this I think that people I believe in bodily autonomy and that people's Choices about what they want to do with their body should be respected and people should not be ashamed
我们已经涉及了很多领域，我不想谈及具有争议的文化战争，但它在总统选举中会成为重要话题。我个人认为这不是总统选举中最重要的问题。我认为财政问题、能源问题、我们今天讨论的战争和政治问题更为重要。但我想知道你对有关迪士尼、德桑蒂斯、跨性别等问题的看法，以及这些议题在特定政党或两个政党中间似乎已经成为一种痴迷，媒体则广泛讨论这些问题，社交媒体上的年轻一代也在热议。你对这些问题有什么看法？当你陷入关于跨性别运动员的争论和总统辩论时，比如说，你认为一个生物男变性女应该被关进女性监狱吗？你认为他们应该在女子篮球队打球，并和一堆15岁的女孩在高中更衣室里换衣服吗？我已经谈及了迪士尼，但我认为我们应该尊重身体自主权，人们可以选择自己想对自己的身体做出什么决定，而且没必要感到羞耻。
I do not believe at As somebody who was born a biological man Should be able to compete later on in life whatever choice they made on a woman's team. I mean I have a a niece who is playing softball at at BC She has worked She has devoted her entire life to getting that scholarship and it's it's consumed her And I've watched you know during my lifetime women sports from essentially non-existent To to equitable mainly with men sports and I think that's important and I don't think that you know um Women should lose ground um and and anyway, so I would you know, I've said on I don't believe that that's the right thing, but I think everybody should be respected
我不认为一个生物男性出生的人应该能够在后期的生活中做出选择成为女性团队的成员进行比赛。我的意思是，我有一个侄女在BC大学打垒球。她已经全身心投入，致力于获得奖学金，这已经成为她生活的全部。我在我一生中看到了女性运动基本上不存在到与男性运动基本平等的转变，我认为这是非常重要的。我不认为女性应该失去这样的进展，可以说我并不认同这种做法，但我认为每个人都应该受到尊重。
Let me ask a question then about parents who are struggling with this issue At what age should a doctor be allowed to perform gender reassignment Surgery on a individual you believe adults so at what age should you be able to have gender surgery Because this is going to come up multiple times in this debate. I think I also ought to have that choice I don't think a child should have that choice Except with you know certainly not without parent parental permission and I really don't you know I know that the um The real I you know it's a live and let's start by saying this This is a difficult issue and it's an issue that we should not be judging people on and we should not be hating people about We should much be trying to solve people problems and Give people as much leeway as possible to and as much respect In fact, especially way to exercise their choices and much respect those choices we possibly can Within that framework, I don't believe that it's uh at a child without their parental permission should be allowed to choose that kind of surgery because What if their parents agree to it should a 15 year old be able to be I that's a very difficult question and I don't feel like I'm equipped to answer and I'm not gonna You know I interfere. Yeah, I think this panel agrees with this is a very difficult issue and you know people should be
允许医生为个体进行性别重置手术的年龄应该是多少呢？我觉得成年人应该有选择的权利，那么在什么年龄应该能够进行性别重置手术？因为在这个辩论中会涉及到此问题。我认为我应该有这个选择，但是孩子们应该没有这个选择，除非他们经过父母的允许。我知道这是个复杂的问题，我们不应该对人们进行评判和仇恨。我们应该尽可能地解决人们的问题，并尽可能地尊重人们的选择。在这个框架下，我不认为未经父母允许的孩子应该被允许选择这种手术，因为如果他们的父母同意，那么15岁的孩子是否应该被允许这样做是一个非常困难的问题，我不觉得我有资格回答，我不会干涉。是的，我认为这个小组同意这是一个非常困难的问题，人们应该……
what do you think about Things like critical race theory and maybe we can just use that as a way to just talk about The state of US education in general. Are we preparing our children for the task at hand? And what is the task at hand maybe in your eyes and how does it need to change if at all? Now, you know, I think critical race theory as much as I understand it um is You know though listen we should not be hiding from people we should be honest people about the history in this country of genocide of racism and those things So the you know, we need to be honest about that with each other Not to shame people not to make people people feel badly not to make people feel guilty But to understand the the milestones that we never want to not go near again and to move forward with those things I you know internal
你认为像关键种族理论这样的东西怎么样，也许我们可以用它作为谈论美国教育状况的一种方式。我们是否正在为我们的孩子做好将来的准备呢？在你看来，将来的任务是什么，如果需要改变，需要如何改变？我认为，关键种族理论可以为我们提供更多了解美国历史上种族灭绝和种族主义的真相，我们需要坦诚面对这些问题。我们应该向彼此坦诚，而不是避讳这些历史。这样做不是为了让人们感到羞耻、内疚或难堪，而是为了了解我们不想再经历的历程，并向着更好的未来前行。
I don't really understand that The battle over critical race theory in schools, but you know to the extent If somebody would say that this has to that that theme Has to dominate all historical um teaching I would be against that I think it's very very important, you know America Our country has has done wonderful things in the world we have a history of idealism we have a history of moral authority and leadership and we have a history of doing bad things too But I think for children for the sake of national unity for the sake of you know for we need to instill children With the sense of optimism and hope and love and also love of history I mean I grew up learning history and learning you know kind of the heroic aspects of history which I now understand
我真的不太理解学校里关于“关键种族理论”的争论，但是你知道，如果有人说这个主题必须支配所有历史教学，我会反对。我觉得这很重要，因为美国我们的国家在世界上做了很多美好的事情，我们有理想主义的历史，我们有道德的权威和领导力，我们也有做坏事的历史。但是我认为为了儿童和国家团结，我们需要灌输给孩子们乐观、希望和爱的感觉，以及对历史的热爱。我成长的时候学习历史和学习英雄主义方面的历史，现在我理解了这些。
Or not the only parts of history Um, but it's really important for children to have have role models to look up to and have an optimistic view of our country and to have I understand what the shared values are and by values. I mean aspirational values You know the things that our country is supposed to stand for When we are at our best for example, Robert in the in San Francisco we canceled advanced placement classes because it made People feel bad. Do you think that was a good decision? No, if in the name of equity? No, we should be inspiring our children towards excellence And we should be able to as adults give them measures of what mean we mean by excellence And you know that inspires kids and inspires the best out of them and you know We need to we need to have those kind of metrics so that doesn't make any sense to me
历史不是唯一的部分，但对于孩子们来说，拥有榜样是非常重要的，可以让他们看到一个乐观的国家，理解共同的价值观。通过价值观，我指的是我们国家应该代表的那些愿景性价值观。比如，在旧金山，我们取消了进阶课程，因为这让人们感到沮丧，你认为这是个好决定吗？不，如果仅仅以平等之名？不，我们应该激励孩子们追求卓越，并且我们作为成年人应该给他们衡量卓越的标准，这激励孩子们，激发出他们最优秀的一面，我们需要这样的度量标准，这对我来说是毫无意义的。
But then what's your view on for example just educational diversity in charter schools and you're just position on the teachers unions I mean my view is that we ought to be putting huge resources into public schools And making them the best schools in the world and I think if we you know Right now we're making stealth bombers for a billion dollars That cannot fly in the rain And I think if we just cut production of a couple of those we can make all our schools the best schools in the world Do they need competition? Do you believe in vouchers and parents getting to choose which school they go to because it does seem Like there's not a lot of competition and that these teachers unions have a stranglehold On these schools. I have to look at that issue more. I mean my inclination is that we should be putting resources into making our public schools the best schools in the world
那么你对图书馆学校的教育多样性持什么看法？你对教师工会的立场是什么？我的看法是，我们应该把大量资源投进公立学校，让它们成为世界上最好的学校。如果我们采取行动，就可以把我们的学校建设成全世界最好的学校。它们需要竞争吗？你相信优惠券和家长选择学校的制度吗？因为看起来这些学校没有太多的竞争，而这些教师工会对这些学校有着控制权。我必须再仔细研究这个问题。我的倾向是，我们应该投入资源，使我们的公立学校成为世界上最好的学校。
But you said you believed in free markets When with regard to energy why not free markets in regard to education? Well, it has to be a I need to look okay fair enough
但是你说过你相信自由市场，对于能源为什么不推行教育自由市场呢？嗯，这需要我考虑一下，好吧，说得没错。
这句话想表达的意思是：如果你相信自由市场可以在能源领域奏效，为什么不在教育领域实行呢？但是回答者表示需要思考一下，才能给出更公正的答案。
Yeah, let's talk about censorship. Let's talk about the media One of the things that happened during the COVID pandemic is that a lot of people grew suspicious of the mainstream media even more suspicious than they already had been It seemed like the media was curing water on certain issues It was almost impossible for the media To take seriously the idea that the virus might have come from the Wuhan lab for example people Who put forward that I think reasonable explanation were Paul conspiracy theorists The media didn't want to look into why for example this is an example Fauci lifted Obama's moratorium on gain a function research Couldn't get the media to really cover whether you know masking toddlers in Schools did anything positive and then you know when we found out that the mRNA Chats didn't prevent COVID the way they said they never even really asked The CEOs of Pfizer and these other companies when did you know this when do you know that the vaccines didn't do what you said They're gonna do and I remember at Davos you had a rebel news.
是的，让我们谈一谈审查制度。让我们谈一谈媒体。COVID疫情期间发生的一件事是，很多人对主流媒体更多地怀疑，甚至比以前更加怀疑。似乎媒体在某些问题上一直在推销水。比如，媒体几乎不可能认真对待病毒可能来自武汉实验室的想法。例如，提出这种合理解释的人被认为是阴谋论者。媒体也不想探究为什么福奇解除了奥巴马对增强功能研究的禁令。没法让媒体真正关注口罩对学龄幼儿是否有积极作用等问题，当我们发现mRNA疫苗并不能像他们说的那样预防COVID时，他们甚至从来没有真正问过辉瑞和其他公司的CEO，你们什么时候知道这个，什么时候知道疫苗并没有做到你们所说的。我记得在达沃斯会议上，有一个叛逆的新闻组织
It was this gorilla media outfit that Acostid burlough the the CEO of Pfizer out in the street and they were just asking him questions that The media is supposed to ask like you know when did you know What did you know and when did you know it with respect to whether the the vaccines prevented the spread And you couldn't get the New York Times or any of the mainstream allies to cover this at all so it felt to this Gorilla media outfit So any event that's a long wind up, but you know Robert what's your take on the media? Why can't we get What seems to be on as media coverage? How does this fit into your theory of regulatory capture who are they sort of carrying water for it and why?
这个野猩猩媒体公司引起了Acostid的注意，他们把辉瑞的首席执行官赶到了街上，只是在问一些媒体应该问的问题，比如你什么时候知道、知道什么以及你何时知道疫苗是否可以防止传播。你无法在《纽约时报》或任何主流媒体的盟友中找到这条报道，所以这个野猩猩媒体公司感到非常震惊。总之，这是一个很长的引子，但你知道罗伯特，你对媒体的看法是什么？为什么我们无法获得似乎应该有的媒体报道？这如何符合你的监管俘获理论？他们为谁背水一战，为什么？
You know I in 2015 I wrote a book on Simon Arisle and there was a documentary that came out that time called Trace Amounts It was a really good amount documentary on the the mercury based I'm preserved if that wasn't a lot of vaccines at that time and it's been removed from most except for the flu vaccine now But I took that I had a very close relationship with Roger Ales Who is the founder foxness I had this weird relationship because when I was 19 years old I spent three months in a tent with him in East Africa and We you know he would like one way he started fox nose He became like Darth Vader to me and we were anacetic Every issue, but we always he was a very funny guy And very clever and he was also very loyal to his friends and he wouldn't make All of the hosts of fox news put me on so I was the only in farm Alice who's going on Hannity and Bill O'Reilly and Neil Kavuto It's that regularly like weekly And he made them do that, but I went to him with this with this um This movie and showed it to him and he found it compelling and he had a Relative who he believed as vaccine injured a very very close relative And he bought he believed what was going on and what the documentary, you know the throws the documentary was And he said I cannot let you talk about this on foxness. I'm sorry. It's the first time he ever saw me this and he said Um if I let you if any of my hosts let you on to talk about this I would have to fire them And he said um and if I didn't farm I'd get a call from rooper within 10 minutes And he said to me at that time that 70% of the revenues for his not on network news um prime time were pharmaceutical ads and that um that he said of 22 ad space is that we sell on the net Work news on the evening news 17 of those are pharmaceutical the we can not afford To uh to offend our biggest um our biggest uh the funder because I advertise
在2015年，我写了一本关于西蒙·阿里斯尔的书，并且当时还有一部叫做《微量》的纪录片。这是一部非常好的纪录片，讲述了基于汞的疫苗保存剂以及那个时候大部分疫苗中都有这种保存剂。现在除了流感疫苗外，它已经被大部分移除了。但我和福克斯新闻的创始人罗杰·艾尔斯有着非常亲密的关系。这似乎很奇怪，因为当我19岁时，我和他在东非的一个帐篷里度过了三个月，我们总是在争吵。他成为了我的“黑武士”，但他非常幽默、聪明，而且非常忠诚于他的朋友，他让福克斯新闻所有的主持人都邀请我上节目。我是唯一能上汉尼蒂、比尔·奥赖利和尼尔·卡沃托的农夫爱丽丝。他让他们这样做，但是我拿着这部电影去找他，把它给他看，他觉得它很有说服力。他有一个被疫苗伤害的非常亲密的亲戚，他相信这里面发生了什么。他告诉我，他不能让我在福克斯新闻上谈论这个问题。对于我来说，这是他第一次这样看待我。他说，如果我让任何一个主持人请你上节目谈论这个问题，我就得解雇他们。他告诉我，他那时候的非网状网络新闻的70％收入来自于制药广告，并且我们在晚间新闻中销售的22个广告空间中有17个是制药业的。我们不能得罪我们最大的赞助商，因为我们需要它去广告。
And you know I had this interesting experience with Jake Tapper where when I worked on my Rolling Stone article deadly immunity which was about this secret meeting that took place in Simpson with Georgia by cdc and all of the vaccine companies and FDA etc Where they decided to hide the autism effect from the American people and we I got the transcripts for them and publish in Rolling Stone.
你知道我和杰克•塔珀有一个有趣的经历，当我写我的《致命的免疫力》文章时，它是关于美国疾病控制中心和所有疫苗公司以及FDA在佐治亚州辛普森（Simpson）进行的一个秘密会议。在那里，他们决定向美国人隐藏自闭症效应，我得到了他们的记录，并在《滚石》杂志上发表了这些记录。
And Jake Tapper worked for 21 days with me on a on a doc on a exclusive story. And he was gonna add simultaneously was with Rolling Stone publishing it. And Tapper the night before it went on he called me in total distress and he said it's been pulled by corporate all things Colonies and never in my career as corporate killed one of my stories and I'm really angry and then I called it back. The next day he's never spoken to me again.
杰克·塔珀和我一起合作了21天的文档，讲述一则独家新闻。同时，他还打算将其与《滚石》杂志一同发布。在文档即将发布前的那个晚上，塔珀打电话给我，非常沮丧地告诉我，文档被公司叫停，而且是全部和Colonies有关的内容。这是我职业生涯中第一次有公司叫停我的报道，我很生气。第二天，我打电话给他，但他再也没有和我联系过。
But you know there are consequences for these news casters who depart from the orthodoxy. And they know it. If you look at Anderson Cooper he's got a now probably a 13 million dollar year salary. But if you actually do the math probably around 10 million of that comes from Pfizer. Which sponsors this show so you know that's he's working for them. He's not working for us. And you know they know they're working for Explosive stuff.
但是你知道，这些新闻播报员偏离正统的行为是会有后果的。他们也很清楚。例如，如果你看看安德森·库珀，他现在可能有着1300万美元的年薪。但是如果你真正去算的话，其中大约有1000万来自辉瑞公司。这个公司是该节目的赞助商，所以你知道他是在为他们工作，而不是为我们工作。你知道他们知道自己在从事爆炸性的事情。
And I can't disagree with you as having been a publisher of my whole core here. There why why even why even have pharmaceutical ads on TV I mean only doctors can prescribe them. Yeah, it was illegal. That allow pharmaceutical advertising on TV one is New Zealand and the others the United States we both have you know these huge pharmaceutical sales so we take three to four times the amount of pharmaceutical drugs as a European type and we have the worst health results were 79th In terms of you know health impacts Uh, you know health outcomes among all nations and so you know and also pharmaceutical drugs a third biggest killer of Americans After cancer and heart attacks so it is not helping me when when they when FDA changed that rule. Um the AMA was against it like all the medical institutions said you can't do this. It is going to destroy health in America and but you know they did it.
作为我的核心出版商，我不能反对你的观点。那么，为什么电视上会有药品广告呢？我是指只有医生才能开处方。是的，这是非法的。在新西兰和美国，药品广告是合法的，我们两个国家都有庞大的药品销售业务，我们吃三到四倍于欧洲的药品，并且我们的健康状况最差，排名第79位。此外，药品是美国第三大杀手，仅次于癌症和心脏病发作。因此，当FDA改变规定时，这并没有对我有任何帮助。美国医学协会和其他医学机构都反对，他们说这会破坏美国的健康，但是他们还是这样做了。
And the problem is that these uh that the pharmaceutical companies now know not not only can you know I have this platform for broadcasting their product but they also control content on the. As far as I can tell I think the left Just to be blunt hates you more than the right. And so you want to just comment on Your ability to get the mainstream media to pay attention particularly folks on the left and give you the air time so that you can get your message. And how much the party matters in this process for you?
问题在于，制药公司现在不仅可以利用这个平台来宣传他们的产品，而且他们也控制了内容。据我了解，左翼比右翼更加憎恶你。因此，您想就您引起主流媒体，特别是左翼的注意力和给您空间发表您的想法，进行评论。对于您来说，该过程中党派有多少影响？
I don't know that they're gonna I mean it was kind of traumatic what happened this week to them Not to make because I'm used to it the ABC you know one of their the a person who describes herself As the journalist journalist and gave me a long talk when I got to ABC um That uh When I got to the green room that she was not somebody who had ever censored or caught and they're not working a cherry pick Because I said to her I don't I'm very uncomfortable doing it taped interview with you I know where you guys do when I tape an interview you cut it off you cherry pick it you dice it and you do and you then you play things that a contact And she said you won't do this see that from me.
我不知道他们会怎么样，我的意思是，这个星期对他们来说有点创伤性，不想因为我已经习惯了这个(ABC)，你知道他们其中一个自称为记者的人在我到达ABC时很详细地和我谈了一次，当时我在绿色房间，她说她从来没有被审查过或者被提前挑选掉一些东西，他们也不会挑选且不工作。因为我对她说，我非常不舒服和你做录制采访，我知道你们录制采访时会将其切割掉、挑选一些东西、还会打乱它，然后你们会发表一些会有联系的内容。而她说，你不用和我担心这些。
I'm a journalist journalist. I don't take orders from anybody. I do and then She asked me She says you know in the interview I didn't want to talk about vaccine. I'm not going around the country talking about vaccines If you see my speeches, I'm I don't mention vaccines. I but if somebody asks me about vaccines I'm gonna tell the truth.
我是一名记者，不接受任何人的命令。我会做我想做的事情。她问我，在采访中我不想谈论疫苗。我不会在全国各地谈论疫苗。如果你看到我的演讲，我不会提到疫苗。但如果有人问我关于疫苗的问题，我会说出实话。
I'm not looking to talk about it. I know a lot about him But I'm not leading with that because I I'm interested in a lot of other issues. Oh, she says um Everything you've said about vaccines about vaccines not has been debunked and um, you know vaccines. It's cleared Do not cause autism What do you have to say by that and then I said to my who? And then I went into a long diatribe where I cited the cases the dates the publications And the studies that show that yeah, obviously it caused autism and She cut out that whole section and then and then So she had her question Which stated the industry talking point and then she brackets the the The news Report on me with something at the beginning that says you know, he's known to be a chronic liar in a disinformation spreader.
我不想讨论这个问题。我虽然了解他的情况，但我不想谈论这个，因为我对许多其他问题感兴趣。噢，她说，关于疫苗的所有话都被证实是错的，你知道，疫苗不会导致自闭症。你对此有什么想法呢？然后我问了她，我开始长篇大论地引用案例、日期、出版物和研究来证明，显然它会导致自闭症。她略去了整个部分，然后，她把我的言论和“他被知道是慣常撒谎和散布虚假信息”的内容放在括号里，成为了新闻报道的开头。
And then the end she said we had to remove things he said because they were false. The whole thing was so weird that she has gotten criticism even from the left Because you know, I mean it well what is the news? Castor supposed to do are they supposed to manipulate public information is their job.
最后，她说我们必须删除他所说的因为它们是错误的。整个事情很奇怪，以至于她甚至从左派得到了批评。因为你知道，我的意思是新闻是什么？Castor应该做什么？他们应该操纵公共信息吗？这是他们的工作吗？
Protect Americans from dangerous thoughts. Are the audiences do they have such contempt for their audiences? That the think that the audiences can't make up their own minds and what is their whole vision About the. traditional role of the American media as the guardians of free speech in the first amendment on its country You can be sure our commitment to you is to not take out one sentence of anything you said there's some stuff I'd like you to take out I mean, I also found that a crazy decision for them to make If you're if they actually believe that what you're saying about vaccines which they put on the table is Incorrect or what you said about autism or COVID is incorrect.
保护美国人不受危险思想的影响。这些观众是否对他们的观众如此蔑视？即认为观众不能自主决定，他们的整个愿景是什么？美国传媒作为第一修正案中言论自由的守护者的传统角色是什么？你可以放心，我们的承诺是不会删去你所说的任何一句话。有些东西我希望你能删掉，我觉得他们做出了一个疯狂的决定。如果他们实际上认为你所说的关于疫苗的言论是不正确的，或者你所说的关于自闭症或COVID的言论是不正确的，那么他们的决定也是错误的。
They should be trained enough to rebut it and have a thoughtful debate about you. I'll be even more blunt in the subject my my short takeaway about you Robert is that you are this odd person Which is born and raised by the establishment But raising a lot of very uncomfortable questions about the establishment and I think that that's very complicated for people to deal with and I don't think that folks Will be very supportive you in the mainstream and I think the reason is because It'll cause them to question all these systems that they put a lot of trust into that they work within And so I'm not even sure whether they're trying to play gotcha journalism about vaccines or which is a much bigger thing.
他们应该接受足够的培训来反驳你，并展开有思考性的辩论。关于你，罗伯特，我的简短印象是你是一个有点奇怪的人，虽然你是由体系养育成长的，但你提出了很多令人不适的问题，而这对人们来说非常复杂，我不认为主流会支持你，原因是这会让他们开始质疑他们信任和依靠的所有体系，这对他们来说是很麻烦的。因此，我甚至不确定他们是在针对疫苗进行陷阱新闻的报道，还是说正在涉及更大的问题。
Which is here is a guy that I do think it's very similar to Trump that says He came out of the house and told us what was happening in the house and it actually turned out that was happening the Dave Sheppell quote from Saturday Night Live. I think you're a very different person than him But that comment is very much the same. I think people Are attracted to the truth and the confirmatory evidence about when they think that there's frankly corruption And when it's laid bare in plain English I think it's validating for those on the outside because we're like we knew it and then for folks on the inside They're like we need to bury it and I think that that's what you're gonna be up against this entire election cycle.
这里有个人，我认为他和特朗普非常相似，他说他走出房子告诉我们房子里正在发生什么事情，实际上这来自《周六夜现场》的戴夫·谢泼德的名言。我认为你和他是非常不同的人，但这个评论是非常相似的。我认为人们被吸引向真相和证实证据，当他们认为有腐败的时候，当这些腐败用简单明了的英语来阐述时，这为外部人员提供了验证，因为我们想着我们知道这件事，而对于内部人员而言，他们则想要掩盖这件事，我认为这将是整个选举周期中你们所面临的问题。
So whether it's us whether it's Rogan Folks that'll give you the chance for you to just lay your case out For millions of people who can smartly and intelligently make up their decision I think that's what it comes down to so I really just want to say thank you for Giving us so much time and just being as honest as you were and transparent as you were sacks closing thoughts here With yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think that I think that's a great reference Jamoth to the Sheppell quote.
无论是我们还是Rogan Folks，都会给你机会阐述你的观点，为数百万能够明智地做出决定的人提供这个机会。我认为这就是问题所在，所以我真的想说声谢谢，感谢你花这么多时间，非常诚实和透明地表达你的观点。在这里，Sacks表示自己的想法是赞同的，他认为这是一个非常棒的参考Jamoth Sheppell的话。
I think that The ABC News interview was really telling because I think it's one thing if they had edited the interview for time And just cut certain things but they didn't do that they cut out your side of the conversation and then declared you guilty of Misinformation But not letting the audience hear what it is that you said they simply declared you guilty of it and I think In that case, I think this is an example of how dissenting views are labeled as misinformation As really a suppression tactic.
我认为ABC新闻的采访非常说明问题，因为如果他们仅仅为了时间把采访剪辑了一些，并且删除了某些内容，那就是一回事。但是他们没有这样做，他们删去了你发表的言论，并宣布你犯有错误信息的罪行。他们没有让观众听到你说了什么，直接认定了你的罪行。我认为这是异议观点被贴上错误信息的标签，是一种压制行为的例子。
You know, they they can't prove that it was misinformation They didn't give you the chance to to say your your side of it And I think this is a tactic now of the elite to declare certain inconvenient Truce or viewpoints out of bounds. They don't want them being considered And I think what's very interesting about your campaign is you are gonna force I think elites and you know various kinds foreign policy elites Henderson Cooper political elites media elites financially consider views.
你知道，他们不能证明那是错误信息。他们没有给你机会表述你的观点。我认为现在精英阶层的一个策略是宣布某些不方便的停火协议或观点超出界限。他们不想让人们考虑这些观点。我认为你的竞选非常有趣，因为你将迫使各种外交政策精英、安德森·库珀、政治精英、媒体精英和财经精英考虑这些观点。
Yeah, that I you know whether you agree with them or not I think you've made them in a very articulate way and I know enough about Certain of your views Like with respect to the origins of Ukraine war to say yeah, I I agree with that. I believe that's true So I don't think they can dismiss you today's conspiracy There is sacks as we've talked about our tomorrow's polisers today's conspiracy. There is our tomorrow's polisers go ahead Jamal I really think that this is what's gonna be scary as if you're As its election kind of rules forward the contrast and compare on the democratic side is gonna be very troublesome to the establishment and I just encourage you to just Just keep sticking to it and telling people what you think.
嗯，我认为无论你是否同意他们，你都已经以非常清晰的方式表达了你的观点。我对你的某些观点足够了解，例如你对于乌克兰战争起源的看法，我同意这是真的。因此，我认为他们不能把你的观点简单地归为阴谋论。我们之前提到的今天的阴谋论就是明天的时政议题。继续讲吧，Jamal。我真的认为，在选举的推进过程中，民主党派和现有的政治体系之间的对比和比较将会非常令人不安。我鼓励你坚持自己的观点，告诉人们你的想法。
Freeberg any final thoughts as we wrap can I say one last Yes, and my defense And I want to because it's such a great platform What I've always said to be but you know So if I'm if I'm promoting misinformation, which I'm constantly accused of Show me what it is identify don't just say I'm an infamous information promoter show me the piece that you don't agree with or that You know, I made a false statement I would say that I have not promoted any misinformation if Unless misinformation is just a euphemism for anything that departs from government orthodoxies But every pose I have probably the most robust Fact checking operation in North America because I know these attacks are coming so we have 300 and over 320 MD physicians PhD scientists On my advisory board who see everything that goes out And everything that I posted on Instagram was cited or sourced work to a government paid database Or peer reviewed publication. I don't know anything and by the way that doesn't mean I won't make a mistake at some point But guess what if I made a mistake People would point it out and you know what I would do I'd change it and a public opinion in the face of new facts Exactly Show me fact that's the only thing that'll change my opinion show me facts and I will change it so fast But you know you need to show me facts
Freeberg，在结束之前您有没有什么看法可以和我们分享？可以说最后一句话吗？
当然，我愿意发表我的看法，因为这是一个非常好的平台。我一直强调，但是您知道的，如果我正在宣传错误信息，那么我就会不断受到指责。那么请您指出错误在哪里，不要仅仅说我是一个错误信息的宣传者，而要展示出我所不同意的部分或是我所犯的错误。我可以说除非错误信息只是一个代表任何违背政府正统的东西的委婉说法，否则我并没有宣传过任何错误信息。事实上，我的每一个帖子都有着最强大的事实核查机制，因为我知道这些攻击会接踵而至，我们拥有320名医生、博士、科学家的咨询委员会，他们看到我发布的每一个帖子。在我的Instagram上发布的每一件事情都会被引用或被引用到政府支付的数据库或同行评审的出版物。我不知道任何你说的任何事情，顺带一提，这并不意味着我不会犯错。但是你知道，如果我犯错了，人们会指出来的，而我会改正并根据新的事实改变公共舆论。展示给我事实才能改变我的观点，而且我会非常快地改变我的观点。但是你需要给我展示事实。
So just on on the competition between you and Biden for this nomination I want to say that the Kennedy family has been involved in public life for for decades and many Kennedys Has served in public life and I honestly don't remember one time With any Kennedy you served in public life where they've been accused of Receiving money from a foreign government not once and we're now up to 12 Biden's I think who've received a payment You know from foreign governments Potentially in this larger 100-buy and scandal do you have a point of view on that? I mean The fact that it appears that honor Biden and other members of the buying family received payments from foreign governments Is that how do you interpret that is that something that you think is fair game in this campaign to talk about? I you know, I don't know enough about it David To be able to render judgment on it. I don't know the intricacies of those relationships I think the optics are are unfortunate But you know, I would leave it. I think it is fair game for people who are looking into it to criticize some question I don't know enough about
这就议员和拜登在这次提名竞选中的竞争，我想说，肯尼迪家族参与公共生活已有数十年的历史，许多肯尼迪都在公共生活中服务过，老实说，我真的不记得有哪个肯尼迪在公共生活中曾被指控从外国政府获得金钱，从来没有过。而现在已有12个拜登吧，他们可能从外国政府收到了付款，这是在更大的100个拜登丑闻中。您对此有何看法？我是说，尊重拜登和其他拜登家族成员接受来自外国政府的付款这个事实，您如何解释？您认为在这场竞选中谈论这个问题是公平竞争吗？我不知道足够多关于这件事情，David，我无法对此作出评判。我不知道那些关系的复杂性。我认为，这种外在现象不幸并且我会把它留下来。我认为，那些正在研究它并批评和质疑的人是公平的。
I'm not in the position to be able to do that all right on that I would just like to say I grew up in a Catholic I was like How sold Irish Catholic in Brooklyn on the wall in my grandmother and grandfather's Dining room were three people Bobby Kennedy robber Kennedy and Jesus Christ. It's been an honor to have you on the program And thank you for giving us two hours of vibrant debate We wish you well and we'd like to have you on again and perhaps if this platform allows September for debates And they will not host you on the debates we will I hear on the oil and podcasts. I'll let you go and On behalf of all the besties. Thank you for giving us two hours and deeply engaging on these topics That's like thank you. I really enjoyed it
我没有能力做到这一点，我只想说我在一个天主教家庭长大，成长于布鲁克林的爱尔兰天主教社区。在我祖父母的餐厅墙上挂着三个人：鲍比·肯尼迪、罗伯·肯尼迪和耶稣基督。能够邀请你参加节目是我们的荣幸，感谢你为我们带来两个小时的热烈辩论。祝你好运，我们很想再次邀请你加入我们，如果这个平台在9月份举行辩论，而他们不会邀请你，我会在我的播客上邀请你。代表所有的Besties，感谢你在这些话题上与我们进行深入的讨论。非常感谢，我真的很享受这次经历。
All right, this I think went spectacularly well Let's go around the horn here and get immediate reactions freedberg I want to start with you because I think You on the science issues maybe held back a little bit and let him speak We yeah, we didn't have much of a dialogue with him. I'd say we we all kind of had a few opening statements, but let him kind of speak his mind I don't know. We'll see how the episode plays With listeners it was really him having a platform to speak his mind for the past you know two hours And you know, it's interesting. I mean obviously he's a candidate that's challenging the the current sitting president for his own parties nomination so you know really kind of You know interesting moment to participate in and you know, but we did kind of give him the platform to kind of speak his mind
好的，我认为这次非常成功。现在让我们听听大家的反应，先从Freedberg开始。我想从你开始，因为我觉得在科学问题上你可能有所保留，让他说了很多。我们并没有和他进行太多的对话，我们只是各自发表了一些开场白，然后让他自由表达了两个小时。这个候选人正在挑战现任总统的自己的政党提名，所以参与其中确实是一个有趣的时刻，但我们确实给了他展示自己的平台。未来我们会看听众如何反应。
I think my observation is this guy Robert clearly has a very deep rooted anti-establishment energy and That plays through in many of his points of view anti-establishment kind of Energy I think manifest as both conspiracy theories where you know as people have kind of classified some of his claims which typically You know involved looking at call it correlation or circumstance, but not necessarily having the causality Or the tie to demonstrate or or have proof of point or evidence of point
我认为我的观察是这个叫Robert的人显然具有一种深深根植的反建制能量，并且这种能量在他的许多观点中表现出来，这种反建制的能量体现在一些阴谋论中，人们通常将他的说法归为看待关联或情况，但并没有证明或证据来支持他的观点。
And I think that that's really where he trips me up on a couple of points personally Which ones would you say are the points that trip you most where were you like? I think the general statement that there are kind of you know embedded interests in government is a good general statement Then you start to try and tie together different kind of correlations or circumstances and say that's evidence It's not really it doesn't resonate true with me as someone who who likes to kind of see empirical Truth kind of be demonstrated
我认为他在某些方面确实让我感到困惑，个人而言。你会说哪些方面是最让你困惑的点，有哪些点会让你有这种感觉呢？我认为总的来说，政府中存在嵌入式利益这种说法是一个好的普遍性描述。然而，你开始试图联系不同类型的相关或情况，并说这就是证据，而这并不真实，这并不与我作为喜欢看到经验真相被证明的人的想法相符。
I think some of these points around we know that pfoAs one you know one of these products one of these chemistries He talked about that's in the environment. They're very damaging to the environment They're very damaging the human health and there are others that he makes claims around that don't have that same level of evidence But they all get kind of bucketed together that all this stuff is bad that all nuclear is bad Because they're you know is a Facility that was built in the 1950s and 1960s that had some degree of bad engineering and what some might argue isn't necessarily a major hazard Is radioactive leak but has above kind of standards of radiation leak and therefore all nuclear is threatening Those are the sorts of things that kind of trip me up with him that one can't have a little bit. Yeah as well
我认为我们知道一些关于PFOA的点，这是其中一种产品，其中一种化学物质。他谈到它在环境中非常有害，也非常有害于人类健康，还有其他一些点，他声称这些东西没有同样的证据水平。但是它们被纳入一类，认为所有这些东西都是不好的，所有核能也是不好的，因为在20世纪50年代和60年代建造的某些设施涉及到一些糟糕的工程问题，某些人可能认为不一定是重大的危险，但却发生了放射性泄漏，超出了放射性泄漏的标准，因此所有核能都是威胁。这些是让我困扰的问题，他不能有一点微小的差异。
The nuclear issue that matters to me. This is all just bullshit talking rambling about social issues and you know Like what the fuck are we gonna do with education and wars? None of it fucking matters If we cannot solve the debt and budget crisis problem in this country We are running into the ground the United States is really just a panic. I know you do and I think the US is in a tight Let's not look back then you're a key issue.
我关心的核问题。这些都是放屁，唠叨社会问题，你懂的。我们关心教育和战争的屁用都没有。如果我们不能解决国家的债务和预算危机问题，那一切都是白搭。我们正在把美国领到崩溃的边缘，我知道你也这么认为，我觉得美国正处于危急之中。让我们不要再回头看了，现在你应该着眼于这个关键问题。
So for me This is the thing that I told you guys. I'm focused on with every candidate is how much do you think about the prioritization Of the fiscal the federal budget? How do you think about the debt level and how do you think about the boundary conditions? And it's clear that that's not really a concrete part of his platform Nor is it by the way for any other candidate that I've seen so far. I agree with you that that's kind of where I sit And it's very unpopular. Chimoff. Let's have your response here to generally you have your opinion
对于我来说，我告诉大家的问题就是我关注每一个候选人的重点，就是他们对于财政联邦预算的优先级有多少思考？他们如何考虑债务水平以及边界条件？显然，这并不是他计划的具体部分，同样也不是我看到的其他任何候选人的计划。我同意你的观点，但这很不受欢迎。Chimoff，让我们听听你的回应，你是如何看待这个问题的呢？
I just think that your opinion is an opinion and you presented as this canonical fact and that's what I have An issue with I just think that's intellectually not accurate. So I respect the fact that you think that that's an issue But I think there's a lot of smart people that would say that's not the issue that you think it is and there are other issues Where did you find yourself Chimoff in this process? agreeing with him or Disagreing with him all political candidates
我认为你的观点只是一个观点，你却把它呈现成了权威事实，这是我认为不准确的地方。我尊重你认为这是一个问题，但我认为有很多聪明人会说这不是你认为的问题，还有其他问题。在这个过程中，你认同Chimoff吗？还是反对他？这适用于所有政治候选人。
At some point have a fork in the road Which is that they're going to be a truth teller of their own truth or they're going to be conformist to talking points to try to offend the least amount of people. Okay And the first path is much riskier But it actually has much larger discontinuous outcomes i.e. Trump The other path is a good antidote to the first path When the first path is what's in power and you saw Biden take that path So for me, I don't agree with some of the things that he said in fact there are things like nuclear Which I just think he's wrong about sure But what do I appreciate is that there is a version of his truth That is researched and reasoned from his own lived experience as well as history and facts And then he's also willing to say I just don't know enough about it So let me rethink it and then come back to you
有一些人在某个时候会面临一个十字路口：他们要么成为自己的真相告白者，要么遵循说话要点，以试图最小程度地冒犯他人。第一种选择风险更高，但它实际上具有更大的不连续的结果，例如特朗普。第二种选择是第一种选择的好解药，当第一种选择掌握权力时，你会看到拜登选择了这条道路。对我来说，我不同意他说的一些事情，比如核能，我认为他是错误的。但是我欣赏的是，他的真相的一个版本是从他自己的生活经验、历史和事实中得到研究和推理的。他也愿意说：我对这个问题不够了解，让我重新考虑一下，然后回到你那里。
I thought the comment about you know school choice was an example Right and I think that that's healthy so on balance I would rather have candidates in that first bucket Which are truth tellers that have the potential to cause disagreement Versus the placators who say nothing And this is where I do agree with freeberg whatever the issues are that may be important
我认为关于学校选择的评论就是一个例子。我认为这是健康的，因此总的来说，我宁愿选择那些在第一桶中的候选人，他们是真相说者，他们有可能会引起不同意见，而不是那些顺从者，什么都不说。这也是我赞同Freeberg的地方，无论哪些问题可能很重要。
The point is placating doesn't work anymore and you need some kind of Confrontation on hard topics for there to be any progress now and so I prefer those kinds of people that are able to draw a hard line agitators Non-conform and I personally and so I've always been and I have been very anti-establishment the idea of tearing down all these institutions of power gives me glee I find it gleeful
这句话的意思是，平息并不能解决问题，现在需要就难题进行某种形式的对抗才能有所进展。因此，我更喜欢那些能够划定鲜明的界限、持不合群态度的人，而我个人一直以来都持反体制的态度。摧毁所有权力机构的想法让我感到非常高兴。
Sacks, when we look at this incredible almost two-hour conversation we had here, I think we did hold him and force him on certain issues more than you would normally get in a review without being sensational. We didn't lead with vaccines. We didn't lead with cultural words. We talked about really important issues. Where did you find yourself in most agreement with him and where did you find yourself in least agreement with him?
萨克斯，当我们看到这段不可思议的近两小时的对话时，我认为我们在某些问题上比正常评论中更多地强调了他并迫使他作出回应，但并没有引发轰动效应。我们没有以疫苗为首要议题，也没有用文化用语来引导，而是谈论了非常重要的问题。在哪些问题上您最赞同他，在哪些问题上您最不赞同他？
Well, I want to make sure we see the forest for the trees here because I think you can disagree with this or that tree or you can get lost down the rabbit hole of some of these very technical scientific debates. But here's the forest: you've got this scion of wealth and privilege who comes from the most prominent, famous democratic family, and he was set in his life to go become an environmental lawyer who would go fight against big corporate environmental polluters. And somewhere along the way, he realized it wasn't just big corporations – it was the problem, it was the agencies, the government agencies that were supposed to be regulating them. And he realized that there was a revolving door going on between industry and these agencies, and so he ended up litigating not just against big companies, but against government agencies. I think that's a really interesting place for a candidate to come from, and what you heard him say or what I took away from it is that he has a very sophisticated critique of regulatory capture, and it goes beyond just the environmental area. It goes also to big pharma, and it goes to the military-industrial complex when he's talking about all these unnecessary wars that the United States has gotten into. And who can doubt that after we spent 20 years and eight trillion dollars bogged down in forever wars in the Middle East, who can doubt that the military-industrial complex has played a malign role in our foreign policy? And we've got all these generals, when they retire from the Pentagon, they go right onto the boards of these defense contractors. So there's enough right about his critique that I think you can't dismiss it. You can't just say this guy's a conspiracy theorist or a nut. He's saying too many things that I know to be true. And there are a lot of other areas where I don't know what the truth is, but he is making sensible arguments, and he's presenting data, and he's asking you to challenge him on the data. So, in any event, I think he's got this very interesting critique of regulatory capture. What he's basically saying is that we have a ruling elite in this country that is managing the country for its own benefit, and that is screwing the middle class. And that critique actually is very similar to what Trump and DeSantis and people on the right are saying. The only difference is that I think people on the right are blaming ideology. They're saying that the ruling elite is following this woke ideology. What Kennedy is saying is that the ruling class is following the money. But you know, I think they both could be right. I think these critiques are very compatible. So look, you might disagree with this or that part of it, but I think that this overall critique – the forest, you know, forget about the trees – I think this forest could find purchase with the electorate because I think people just feel like there's something true about this.
我想确保我们看到整个森林而不是只是树木，因为我认为你可以对这棵或那棵树木持不同意见，或者陷入一些非常技术性的科学辩论的兔子洞中而迷失自己。但是这是整个森林：你有一个富有、特权的后代，来自民主党家族中最著名、最杰出的家族，他本来应该成为一个环保律师，与大型企业的环境污染者作斗争。但在这一路上，他意识到问题不仅是大公司，还有应该进行监管的政府机构。他发现行业和这些机构之间存在一个旋转门，所以他最后不仅对大公司进行诉讼，而且对政府机构进行诉讼。我认为这是一个非常有趣的候选人来自的地方，从他的言论中，我获得的印象是，他对监管嵌入的批判非常成熟，并且不止是针对环保领域。当他谈论美国所涉足的所有这些不必要的战争时，它也涉及到大型制药公司和军工复合体。在我们花费了20年和8万亿美元陷入中东无尽战争泥潭之后，谁能怀疑军工复合体在我们的外交政策中发挥了恶性作用呢？当这些将军退休离开五角大楼时，他们立即进入这些国防承包商的董事会。所以他的批评有够正确，我认为你不能轻视它。你不能说这个家伙是个阴谋论者或疯子。他说的有太多的事情是我知道是真的。而且还有很多其他领域，我不知道真相是什么，但他提出了合理的论点，并提供数据，并要求你挑战他的数据。所以，无论如何，我认为他对监管嵌入的批判非常有趣。他基本上是在说，我们这个国家有一个管理国家为其自身利益的统治精英，而这些精英正在欺骗中产阶级。这种批评实际上非常类似于特朗普、德桑蒂斯和右派人士所表达的观点。唯一的区别是，我认为右派人士将责任归咎于意识形态。他们说统治精英在追随这种文化觉醒的思想。而肯尼迪所说的是，统治精英在追随金钱。但你知道，我认为他们都有可能是对的。我认为这些批评非常兼容。所以，你可能不同意它的这个或那个部分，但我认为这个整体批评——也就是森林，忘掉树木——我认为这个森林可能会得到选民的认可，因为我认为人们只是觉得这其中有些真实的东西。
What I will say is this is exactly how Trump got elected, and there was a great piece, I think it was in the Atlantic, when he was running the first time around that talked a lot about the psychology of his appeal. That he comes from wealth, he comes from the system, but he is the anti-system-system product. That he came out of this machine of wealth, this machine of industry, this machine of influence, and he said this entire system needs to be torn down.
我想说的是，特朗普当选的过程就是这样的，还有一篇很好的文章，在他第一次竞选时，《大西洋》杂志发表了一篇文章，讲述了他的吸引力的心理学。他来自财富，来自体制，但他是反体制体系的产物。他从财富、工业和影响的机器中走出来，说这个整个系统需要被推翻。
And if, by the way, the psychology that they highlighted – and it speaks to Trump, not necessarily to Robert – but what they highlighted was if you look historically at the rise of authoritarian regimes coming out of democracies, it's typically the folks that come from a point of influence and from the point of privilege and power, and they then decided they wanted to tear down the system that produced them. And you trust the bully that comes out of the machine versus the outsider who doesn't really know the machine and doesn't really have access.
顺便提一句，他们突出显示的心理学（这并不一定是针对罗伯特的，而是涉及到特朗普），如果你从历史上观察独裁政权从民主制度兴起的情况，通常是那些来自有影响力、特权和权力的人决定要摧毁生产出他们的制度。然后你会相信从这个体制中崛起的恶霸，而不是那些不真正了解这个体制和没有获得真正权力的局外人。
And that's partially why I think maybe he has a shot at being the anti-Biden alternative, more so perhaps in this go-around than Trump is. Look, he's not a bully, and he's not going to tear everything down. Yeah, listen, I heard him on other interviews, and what he said is, we need a peaceful revolution. We need to reorganize these government agencies. So he's not saying like, maybe that's why he does win over Trump, right? Maybe he becomes the less extreme.
这也是为什么我认为他有可能成为反对拜登的替代者的部分原因。这次可能比特朗普更加明显。他不是一个欺凌者，他不会破坏一切。是的，听着，我在其他采访中听到了他的话，他说我们需要一场和平的革命。我们需要重新组织这些政府机构。所以也许这就是他能赢得特朗普的原因，因为他可能会更加温和。
He's not the bully, but he's like, I know how to dismantle it. And we build these systems quite. They're incredible – free speech, supporting the rule of law, burgeoning the middle class. I mean... these are not things that are really controversial in the end and they're good moral Right, they're good values. He's very morally grounded. I think my concern is just the framework for how you kind of rationalize and and make decisions if You're allowing kind of an influence in you endo And correlation be kind of the driving force instead of having you know So make sure you just at least gather and and sort the empirical evidence to make those decisions That's what he's doing he just reached a different conclusion than you
他不是恶霸，但他觉得自己知道如何解决这个问题。我们建立的系统非常强大，包括言论自由、支持法治、发展中产阶级等等。这些价值观并不具有争议性，而且具有很好的道德性和价值观。他非常有道德标准。我的担心在于，如果你允许某种影响力和相关性成为驱动力，而不是根据经验证据进行决策，那么这种框架可能不太合理。因此，你需要至少收集和排序经验性证据来做出决策。他正在做这件事，只是得出了与你不同的结论。
Yeah, he's just exactly because he's saying that the other conclusion is just the orthodox conclusion Which is nothing to see here. Yeah, by the way, I'm not an orthodox guy and I'm not like following Sack said folks Have said you're pushing RFK Because you think he's a weaker candidate against the Republicans your response No, I don't necessarily think he'd be a weaker candidate for all the reasons we're talking about I think he'd be preferable to to Biden in a lot of people's views
是的，他的意思是说另一个结论就是那个传统的结论。这里没有什么值得关注的。顺便说一下，我不是一个传统的人，也不像跟随萨克说的人。有人说你支持肯尼迪是因为你觉得他作为共和党人的竞选者弱一些，你对此有何回应？并不是所有的情况下我都认为他会是一个较弱的竞选者，原因就是我们之前说的那些。我认为对许多人来说，他比拜登更有优势。
So look for me. This is not like part is in I just think he's really interesting. I think he is a breath of fresh air I think there are many aspects of his critique of our system and the corruption of our ruling class that Hit home. I think regulatory capture is a huge issue. I think a lot of these agencies do need to be reorganized Well, it is the invisible hand that we don't know how to quantify well in all these other discussions that we have And he does put his finger on this really ugly uncomfortable truth Which is there's a cloistered set of insiders for which there's a revolving door between power and money and it's going to be very awkward
所以找我吧。这不只是因为我觉得他非常有趣。我认为他是一抹清新的风。我认为他在批评我们的体制和统治阶层的腐败方面有很多触动人心的方面。我认为监管困境是一个巨大的问题。我认为这些机构需要重新组织。在其他所有讨论中，我们无法很好地量化这个看不见的手。他指出了一个真正丑陋不舒服的真相，即有一群隔离的内部人士，在权利和金钱之间有一个旋转门，这将非常尴尬。
for a small number of people to hear that message as he gets more attention Which is probably why The media industrial complex will not you know will do his best to prevent that message from getting out They're the media is going to block this guy At every angle because you know why podcasts could play a huge role just like in 2016 social media broke through and played a huge role I think in 2024. I think that podcasts could break through podcast will decide the way that unorthodox candidates get their message out It could be the way it's getting its get their message out because if after two hours of this you don't want to learn more about him Or you're not going to consider him more fully I think it's impossible because he's so well spoken.
这段话的意思是，获得更多关注的候选人，只需要让少数人听到他的信息即可。这也是为什么传媒产业复合体会尽其所能阻止这一信息传播的原因。他们会从各个方面阻挠这个人。因为就像2016年社交媒体的突破，在2024年，播客可能会扮演重要角色。播客将决定非正统候选人传达信息的方式。可能会通过播客来传达信息，因为如果听了两个小时还不想了解更多关于他的消息或更全面地考虑他的话，我认为这几乎是不可能的，因为他讲话非常出色。
I should say he's got a moral compass He's got a track record and he's got interesting for tea what he isn't saying is he's not just throwing bombs and there may be Things that you can debate with him about his interpretation Of what he looks at you know, and that's very fair criticism, I think But his critique is well reason and so you have to unpack the nuances of it to understand why he got to it And also to try to prove him wrong that is very powerful because it's not just Him randomly screaming about how things aren't working now
我认为他有一个道德指南针。他有着可靠的经历和对茶有趣的热爱。他没有直接抨击任何事情，你可以和他就他看到的事物的解释进行辩论，这是非常公正的批评。但他的批评是有理有据的，因此你必须详细阐释他的细微差别，才能理解他为什么会有这个看法，同时也要试着证明他的错误。这是非常有力的，因为他不是只在胡言乱语地抨击事物不好。
And I the moments I thought were very important here and especially for the listeners who are listening who are making important decisions And want to maybe change the political system.
我认为这里的时刻非常重要，尤其是对那些正在做出重大决策并希望改变政治体系的听众来说。
There were multiple times on the issue of trans surgery and I'm going to be very nuanced here with the permission of the parents. He said I need to do more research on it on freeberg challenging him about spending. Spending he said I need to I need to give that some more thought but broadly speaking You know, I think we can take money out of the military budget and billion dollar plans that don't fly in the rain.
在变性手术问题上有多次讨论，经过父母的同意，我要非常谨慎地表达。他说我需要更多地进行研究，并对Freeberg的质疑提出挑战。对于支出，他说我需要更多地考虑，但是总体而言，我认为我们可以从军事预算中削减资金，并取消那些不能在雨中飞行的数十亿美元的计划。
There were many moments where he he conceited. I need to give that some more thought. I need to be thoughtful about that That's not something that you typically hear but in a platform like this with You know the nuance that we've created on this platform having discussions And the audience also being nuanced and having depth we know the fans of this podcast are in a lot of positions of power I'm sure a hundred percent or very high percentage of the people listening to this podcast actually vote and are very influential within their own circles.
他曾有过很多自以为是的时候。我需要再考虑一下这件事情。我需要对此进行深思熟虑。这不是你通常能听到的东西，但在像这样的平台上，我们创造了很多细微差别，并进行了讨论。观众也很有深度，我们知道这个播客的粉丝处于很多权力地位。我相信，听这个播客的人百分之百或者非常高的比例实际上会投票，并在自己的圈子中有很大的影响力。
I think this kind of platform where you have a very deep discussion and somebody can say You know what I need to go deeper on that and think about it when I asked him about weapons in Taiwan And then I said hey, why wouldn't you give an answer that you defend Taiwan Biden gave it So I don't want to check my cargy wouldn't want to do that. That's a really good answer By the way the official the official policy of the United States towards Taiwan is strategic ambiguity Which means we don't say whether we'll defend it depends on the circumstances and and Biden when he he's now said multiple times He would defend it and his own staff walked it back because they said we're not changing strategic ambiguity.
我认为这种平台非常适合深入讨论，有人可以说“你知道吗，我需要更深入地思考一下”，当我问他关于台湾武器的问题时，我说“嘿，为什么你不给一个像拜登那样为台湾辩护的答案呢？”那真是一个非常好的回答。顺便说一下，美国对台政策的官方政策是战略模糊，这意味着我们不会说我们是否会保卫台湾，这取决于情况以及拜登现在已经多次说过他会保卫台湾，但他的工作人员否认了这一点，因为他们说我们不会改变战略模糊。
So yeah, I mean the policy he said in that case actually is the United States policy. So let me ask you guys a question if he won the democratic nomination and He's up against Trump who do you vote for obvious? Okay, yeah, of course a herf Kay and I think sacks would have a hard time. He won't say who he's voted for previously. I think sacks would vote or a tax is not gonna say are you Are you saying now? Sacks doesn't like to say he's just a lack of alien and preserving judgment on the general I know who both candidates are okay, he won't even sacks won't even tell us who vote who he voted for.
嗯，我的意思是他在那个案例中所说的政策实际上是美国的政策。那我问问你们，如果他赢得了民主党提名，面对特朗普，你们会投谁的票？当然是他了吧。嗯，我想萨克斯可能会有些困难，他不会说他之前投了谁的票。我认为萨克斯会投，但他不会说，你是说现在吗？萨克斯不喜欢说，他只是保留对总统选举的判断，我知道两位候选人是谁，好吧，他甚至不会告诉我们他投了谁的票。
I would love for RFK junior to be on the ballot and have that choice for sure And and as possible I would as possible I would vote for him it depends who the other person isn't really because you wouldn't even tell us who you voted for or if you voted in the last election.
我希望RFK Junior能够出现在选票上，让我们有这个选择。如果可能的话，我会投他的票。不过这还要看另一个人是谁，因为你甚至不告诉我们你在上次选举中投了谁的票或者是否投了票。
Well, that's my right Jason. I don't have to tell you I just think it's it's intellectually dishonest since you talk about politics so much that I do I think you should tell us who you vote I talk about issues now I decide to balance those issues because every candidate is a complex mix of issues That's ultimately my decision. Yeah, but somebody who injects politics into everything to not just say I inject it I'm not the one injecting so to follow up on the question I asked I would love to see Donald Trump come on the show and give him an opportunity to have a conversation and see If folks can have a different point of view coming out of that as well as Joe Biden and maybe some of the other candidates running for the Republican nomination And I want to see if the the points of Focus for us Can you know maybe Match up with one or more of these candidates.
嗯，这是我自己的权利，杰森。我不必告诉你我是谁，只是我认为讨论政治却不透露自己的投票意向是欺骗智商，因为你谈论政治如此频繁，我认为你应该告诉我们你的投票倾向。现在我决定平衡一下这些问题，因为每位候选人都是一个复杂的问题组合，这最终是我的决定。是的，但是一个总是在一切事情中插入政治的人不应该不透露他的倾向。跟进我之前问过的问题，我希望能够邀请特朗普上节目，给他一个机会进行交流，看看大家是否能从中得出不同的观点，以及邀请拜登和其他竞选共和党提名的候选人。我希望看看我们的关注焦点是否能与一些候选人相匹配。
So far I still will come on right We think yeah. So Nikki Hall is in and then Trump will do it and then Biden will not Trump will do it. I think she would do it because he somebody would I mean he had he had he did something with barstool right.
到目前为止，我仍然认为我的想法是正确的。我们认为，尼基·霍尔（Nikki Hall）会加入，然后特朗普（Trump）会成为总统，而拜登（Biden）则不会成为总统，特朗普会继续担任总统。我认为尼基会这么做，因为他也许和barstool（一家娱乐公司）有关联。
Jason, do you want to do you want me to do the announcement on the the summit? Oh, please Okay, so but We are confirmed and signed on our venue and so we are confirmed For all in summit 2023 in Los Angeles September 10th through 12 Secure the bag baby. Let's go. We'll put out the um and I think it's gonna be Really exciting because we'll have an opportunity to at this point in the year We have a lot of time to put together a really high quality Agenda for conversations. We each want to have with really amazing people So I'm excited about that. We've kind of started to put together some Ideas on what we want to talk about who we want to invite to have those conversations of us put out some invites.
杰森，你想要我在峰会上宣布吗？好的，让我来吧。我们已经确认了地点并签署合同，所以我们确认了 2023 年 9 月 10 日至 12 日在洛杉矶举办全球峰会。赚取胜利果实吧，宝贝。我们会发布出去，我认为这将会非常令人兴奋，因为我们有时间组织一场高质量的对话，和我们想要与一些非常棒的人谈话的机会。所以我很期待。我们已经开始构思我们想要谈论的话题，以及邀请哪些人加入我们的对话，我们也已经开始发出一些邀请了。
So very good job by the way and you'll be leading you're the this is your AI summit. So I'm I'm handing everything off to you I'm helping with the parties basically, but you're driving Congratulations your team is exceptional. I just want to let the audience know. We're doing we're doing it together And I mean, I'm I'm stepping back and letting you drive. I consider this like you were I care very deeply about content and I want to you know make sure that we get a chance Yeah, and the experience and have a chance to have the conversations we want to have with the folks we want to talk with So it would nothing could be better than you building on top of the first one And then we just keep going from there to moth and sax if they want to build on it from there
顺便说一句，你做得非常出色，并且你将会领导这个人工智能峰会。所以我把一切交给了你，我基本上只是帮忙准备晚会，但是你要带头。恭喜你的团队非常出色，我想让观众知道，我们是共同合作的。我的意思是，我会退居幕后，让你来主导。我非常注重内容，希望我们有机会与我们想要交谈的人进行交流和体验。如果你能在第一次峰会的基础上继续完善，那是再好不过了。然后我们就可以从那里继续发展，如果Moth和Sax想要在此基础上做更多的事情，那也是可以的。
There'll be three. This is what everybody wants to know is tickets There's gonna be three ticket tiers. They'll still be a VIP one for 7500 that gets you into the dinners Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's that's an important point the VIP experience this year We got some feedback on the last go around That we needed to make sure there was a degree of differentiation. So the VIP experience will include special VIP dinners early access to the theater gift bags special sections during the parties. So hopefully it elevates the experience a bit for folks that are able to Pay the higher ticket fee, which actually helps support the whole program no bottle service And I mean bottle service if you bring your card But hopefully as a way to kind of support the overall program and keep the cost down for everyone else And then it's a $1,500 general admission pass which includes access to the parties And then we'll still have the scholarship class.
将有三种门票等级。大家最想知道的是门票。其中还会有一个售价7500的VIP门票，可以让你参加晚宴。对了，这是重要的一点，今年VIP体验有所不同。我们上次活动收到了反馈意见，需要确保一定程度的差别。所以VIP体验将包括特别的VIP晚宴、提前进入剧院、礼包、派对期间的特别区域。希望这可以提升参加者的体验，对于能够支付更高门票费用的人来说，这实际上有助于支持整个计划的费用，不提供瓶装酒服务，即使您带上卡。但希望这是一种支持整体计划、为其他人降低成本的方式。然后是1500美元的普通入场通证，可以参加派对。我们还将继续设立奖学金班级。
Can I tell you guys a funny story? Yeah, when I joined the ownership group that bought the warriors I heard a rumor Which is that when we were competing it was us versus Ellison to buy the warriors And Ellison had an idea. I don't know if this is true or not. This is what I heard that he had a he had an idea for a new stadium And he's like he wanted to make it an ultra VIP stadium And so there's only five thousand seats and I was like sing up for airlines first class seats Oh, so you go to the stadium towards you, but it'd be like everybody would be like up close and you could touch and outside They also had a thousand guillotines so you could just yeah, I mean, it's hard enough for a family to go see I don't know if that's true or not, but I thought it was very funny For instance, crazy expensive now. It's like crazy expensive. I'm not the dollars for nosebleed seats
我能给你们讲一个有趣的故事吗？是这样的，当我加入收购勇士队的所有权团队时，我听到了一个谣言。这个谣言是我们和埃里森竞争购买勇士队，而埃里森有一个想法。我不知道这是真是假，但这是我听到的。他想建一个全新的体育场，使它成为超级VIP的体育场，只有5000个座位。他想让体育场的座位看起来像头等舱的座位一样，所以你可以很近地看球赛，连触摸都可以。此外，他们还配备了1000个断头台，这样你就可以...我不知道这是真是假，但我觉得很好笑。现在看球票的价格已经很贵了，连顶层都是如此昂贵，要花几千美元才能购买。
For the dictator, Tremoff, Polly, Hapatia for David Sacks who set up this episode and Friedberg the Sultan of science. We hope you enjoy this. It's the first of many to come We will still be doing regular dockets. We might have to go to two episodes a week on weeks like this who knows But give us your feedback share the show and we'll see you all at the all-in summit
翻译成中文：对于独裁者Tremoff、Polly、Hapatia、以及创立这一集的David Sacks和科学大帝Friedberg，我们希望你们喜欢。这是许多即将来临的节目中的第一个。我们仍然会定期发布节目，像这样的周可能会增加到每周两个节目。但请给我们反馈分享这个节目，我们会在全球峰会上见到你们。
We'll let your winners ride Bring man David Sack And it said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it
我们将让你的获胜者继续前进。请麻烦一下David Sack先生。同时，我们决定向粉丝开放源代码，而他们对此的反应非常热烈。
I love you. I love you I'm going on a leash I'm going on a leash
我爱你。我爱你。我要被栓上皮带。我要被栓上皮带。
这句话是一个人使用的，表达他/她对另一个人的深情爱意。后面的两个短语描述了他/她将要被栓上皮带，可能是因为要出门遛狗或者进行其他活动。
Besties are gone I'm going through the deep That's my dog taking a wish to drive away
最好的朋友离开了，我陷入了深深的痛苦中。我的狗希望带我离开这里。
So, we're going to go to the end We should all just get a room and just have one big hug or two because they're all It's just like this like sexual tension that we just need to release some of them What your Be what your Be your feet We need to get I'm doing all this I'm doing all this
所以，我们打算走到尽头。我们应该都找个房间，来个大拥抱或两个，因为我们都有这种性的紧张感，需要释放一些。Be what your Be your feet是什么意思？我们需要明白。我正在做所有这些事情。