China's Second World War and royal births through the ages
发布时间 2013-07-04 11:00:00 来源
摘要
Rana Mitter explores China's little-known contribution to Allied effort in World War Two, while Kate Williams explains how royal babies have been treated through history. Rob Attar presents Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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中英文字稿 
At one point, Chang wrote in his diary that he had seen the British ambassador of the time, looking very humble after Pearl Harbor, and he said, they are looking very humble today, I would not have believed this at this proud Anglo-Saxon race. That was Rana Mitter, author of a new book on the history of China in the Second World War. When Mary Antoinette was giving birth, the room was so crowded, she could hardly breathe that people had to back off because it was such a great honour to be there as a culture. And that was Kate Williams, who has been talking to us about Royal Byrthe's in centuries past.
有一次，张写在他的日记里说，他见到了当时的英国大使，在珍珠港事件后看起来很谦虚。他说，“他们今天看起来非常谦逊，我不会相信这个曾经是自豪的盎格鲁-撒克逊种族。”这是新书《第二次世界大战中中国历史》的作者麦绍礼（Rana Mitter）所说。当玛丽·安托瓦内特（Mary Antoinette）生孩子时，房间里非常拥挤，她几乎无法呼吸，人们必须退后，因为在那里出席是一种极大的荣耀。这是凯特·威廉姆斯（Kate Williams），她正在向我们介绍过去几个世纪的皇家诞生。
Hello, and welcome to the History Extra Podcast. My name is Rob Attar and I'm the editor of BBC History magazine, which is the UK's bestselling history magazine. You can find it in all good news agents and on subscription. See historyextra.com forward slash subscribe hyphen today for subscription deals. We also have digital editions available for the iPad, the Kindle, the Kindle fire and Google Play. The details of these digital formats head to historyextra.com forward slash digital.
大家好，欢迎收听《历史 Extra Podcast》。我是罗布·阿塔尔，是英国最畅销的历史杂志《BBC History magazine》的编辑。你可以在所有好的新闻摊上或者购买订阅获取该杂志。欲获得订阅优惠，请前往historyextra.com/subscribe-today。此外，我们还提供iPad、Kindle、Kindle Fire和Google Play数字版。关于这些数字版的详细信息，请前往historyextra.com/digital。
Rana Mitter is a historian at the University of Oxford and a presenter on Radio 3's Nightwaves. He specialises in the history of China and has devoted his latest book to China's role in the Second World War. Although its story is rarely told in the West, China actually spent twice as long fighting Japan as either Britain or the United States and lost around 15 million lives in the process.
兰纳·米特是牛津大学的历史学家，并担任收听广播3“夜浪漫”的主播。他专注于中国历史，并将最新的书献给了中国在第二次世界大战中的角色。尽管西方很少听到这个故事，但实际上中国对日本的战斗时间是英国或美国的两倍，而在这个过程中失去了大约1500万人的生命。
Rana seeks to explore the history of this forgotten ally in an article for our July issue and he joined me down the line from Oxford a couple of weeks ago to expand on the story. I began by asking him how China and Japan had come to blows in the first place.
Rana致力于在我们七月刊物中探究这个被遗忘的盟友的历史，他几周前从牛津与我通话，扩展了这个故事。我开始询问他中国和日本最初是如何发生冲突的。
China and Japan had been in conflict for many decades before war broke out in 1937. It wasn't a simple relationship. Many young Chinese went to Japan to study. They regarded it as the most prosperous and in some ways the most inspiring nation of East Asia. But Japan had also become much more militarist, particularly during the Great Depression of the late 1920s. Japan took a strong turn towards an imperialistic and in some ways very expansionist few of the world. It felt it had a destiny on the Asian mainland and that China was the target of that destiny.
1937年战争爆发前，中日之间长达数十年的冲突并不简单。许多年轻的中国人赴日本留学，他们认为日本是东亚最繁荣、最具启示性的国家之一。但日本也变得更加军国主义，特别是在20世纪20年代末的大萧条时期。日本强烈转向帝国主义和某种意义上非常扩张主义的世界观。它认为自己在亚洲大陆上有一种使命，而中国则是这种使命的目标。
At the same time, Chinese nationalism was rising in the early 20th century. Young people in particular, but many others, felt that China had been given a bad deal, particularly after the opium wars of the mid-19th century. That China essentially had been invaded over and over again by the British, by the French, by the Japanese, by the Americans. That it was time for the country to create a new and more positive vision of itself.
同时，中国民族主义在20世纪初逐渐兴起。尤其是年轻人，但也包括许多其他人，都感觉到中国在19世纪中期的鸦片战争后遭受了不公正的待遇。中国实质上一直被英国人、法国人、日本人、美国人等多次入侵。现在是时候为国家创造一个新的、更加积极的愿景了。
So these two visions of Asia, one that was based in Chinese nationalism, and one that was based in Japanese imperialism, were growing and coming into almost inevitable conflict by the 1930s. That meant that in the summer of 1937, the two forces finally came into conflict. The nationalist leader of China, Shanghai Shaik, saw that there were troop movements in northern China, where there were Japanese garrisons stationed there. And he took this decision. Is this going to be the scenario for the next few years and decades to come that every time the Japanese invade further into China, a little bit here, a little bit there, we don't have to say yes, or are we finally going to have to make a stand? He decided to make a stand. Japan went to war, but the consequences will be devastating for both countries for the next 80 years.
因此，这两种对亚洲的看法，一种基于中国民族主义，一种基于日本帝国主义，在20世纪30年代不可避免地增长并冲突。这意味着在1937年夏天，这两个势力终于发生了冲突。中国民族主义领袖上海赛克看到在中国北部有日本守备队的部队动向，他做出了这个决定。这将是未来几年甚至几十年日本进一步侵入中国的情况吗？我们不必必须说“是”的吗？或者我们终于不得不采取行动？他决定采取行动。日本发动了战争，但对两国的后果将是灾难性的80年。
But am I right to say that Japan had already been making incursions into China for quite a few years already by 1937? Japan had been making huge incursions into China during the decades before 1937. As early as 1895, Japan gained its first colony in China. And that was the island of Taiwan, which it won at the end of the first war between China and Japan. That was just a shorter skirmish. It was about a year or so. And the end result was that the balance of power shifted in Asia. Four millennia China had been the big brother, the senior member of the Asian Brotherhood in the Asia Pacific region.
但是我能不能说在1937年之前，日本已经在中国进行了相当多年的入侵呢？ 大约在1937年之前的几十年间，日本曾对中国进行大规模的入侵。早在1895年，日本就获得了在中国的第一个殖民地——台湾岛，这是在中日战争结束后获得的。那只是一场较短的冲突，大约只有一年左右。最终结果是亚洲的力量平衡发生了变化。四千年以来，中国一直是亚洲兄弟会的大哥，亚太地区的资深成员。
But because it had improved its technology, it had developed its weaponry, developed its economy. Japan, the little brother, fought against China in a clash between them in 1894, 1895, and it won. And it was about its first colony, the island of Taiwan.
由于改进了技术、发展了武器和经济，小弟弟日本在1894年到1895年与中国发生的冲突中获胜了，这次冲突主要是为了争夺其第一个殖民地——台湾岛。
Then over the next few years and decades, the Japanese managed to use their newfound strength to take more and more territory, parts of the northeast of China, known as Manchuria, in the war against Russia in 1904 to 5. At the Treaty of Versailles, which we mostly think of as a European issue, in fact, Japan was granted some of the former German colonies on the Chinese mainland, sparking a huge upsearch in Chinese nationalism that became known as the May 4th movement because of the student demonstration on the 4th of May 1919 that protested the Japanese incursion.
在接下来的几年和几十年中，日本利用他们新获得的实力夺取了越来越多的领土，在1904-1905年对俄罗斯的战争中占领了中国东北的一部分——满洲地区。在我们通常认为主要是欧洲问题的凡尔赛条约中，实际上日本获得了中国大陆前德国殖民地的一部分，引发了中国民族主义的巨大飙升，被称为“五四运动”，因为1919年5月4日的学生示威抗议日本的侵犯。
But the really big sign that something was brewing in Asia, that there would not be peace between China and Japan, was in 1931. Specifically, on the 18th of September, when really in a coup in a very unexpected move, middle-level Japanese army officers who had been stationed in the Japanese occupied parts of Manchuria, up in the northeast of China, suddenly made a move, a lightning strike, in which within just a few days and weeks they had occupied the whole of the northeast of China, the whole of Manchuria.
但真正预示着亚洲出现动荡，表明中国和日本之间不会有和平的标志是在1931年。具体地说，在9月18日，中层日本军官在一个非常出乎意料的政变中，他们曾驻扎在中国东北部的日本占领区，突然采取了一项迅猛的战术，仅仅在几天和几周的时间内，他们便占领了整个中国东北地区，即整个满洲。
This is a territory that's the size of France and Germany combined. It has a lot of mineral resources, coal. It's an immensely valuable and economically significant part of China, and within just a few days and weeks it was under Japanese control. Technically, they said it was not a colony. They claimed that the local Chinese had begged out, to the called out to the Japanese, begging them to set up an independent state there because they couldn't stand the appalling rule of the Chinese government anymore. And they called it Manchukuo, a term meaning country of the Manchus. But nobody was really fooled. This was a state under Japanese rule.
这个领土的大小相当于法国和德国的总和，拥有丰富的矿产资源，包括煤炭。它是中国极为重要和经济意义深远的一部分。但仅仅几天、几周之内，它就被日本占领了。虽然技术上它们并不是殖民地，但他们声称当地的中国人恳求日本人建立独立国家，因为他们再也无法忍受中国政府的糟糕统治。他们称之为满洲国，意为满洲人的国家。但没有人真正相信这是一个日本统治下的国家。
They also became essentially a sort of dagger pointing at the heart of mainland China. Once the Japanese had stationed troops ultimately over 100,000 of them in the northeast of China, it was probably only a matter of time before hawkish and more militarist figures in Tokyo decided that it was time to go into the mainland as well. And so in 1937, when the two countries did properly come to blows, how prepared was China for a war of this nature?
他们成为指向中国大陆心脏的一种匕首。一旦日本在中国东北地区部署了超过100,000名士兵，鹰派和更具军事色彩的人物很可能决定是时候进入大陆了。因此，当两国在1937年正式发生冲突时，中国为这种性质的战争做好了多少准备呢？
China did not want a war with Japan in 1937. The very best scenario would have been at least 10 and probably more years before they went to war. In other words, they were underprepared. Since the 1920s, China had been undergoing a rapid but very flawed modernization under its nationalist government. The leader was a man named Changkai Shek. A name who brings vague bells these days, but is no longer as famous as he was in the early 20th century. But he had basically fought his way to power in China and set up a capital at Nanjing in 1928.
中国在1937年并不想与日本开战，最好的情况是在至少10年，甚至更长时间后才发生战争。换句话说，他们没有做好充分准备。自20世纪20年代起，在其民族主义政府的领导下，中国正在经历一场快速但非常有缺陷的现代化。领导人是一位名叫蒋介石的人。这个名字今天仍然让人有些印象，但他在20世纪初不再像他那样出名。但他基本上是通过用武力夺取权力并在1928年在南京建立了一个首都。
All the way he had managed to commit an act of gross betrayal against his former communist allies. He had been working with the Chinese Communist still a very young fledgling party. And then he had brutally turned on them in 1927, massacring them first in Shanghai and then in the southern city of Guangzhou or Canton. So Changkai Shek had come to power in 1927 and 28, but he had done so with his hands dipped in the blood of his former allies, you might say.
他一路上成功地对他以前的共产主义盟友进行了大规模的背叛行为。他曾经与中国共产党一起工作，当时中国共产党还只是一个很年轻的小党。然后他在1927年残忍地反转，先是在上海，然后在广州或者是广东的南方城市屠杀了他们。因此，我们可以说蒋介石在1927年和1928年上台，但他是用他背叛过的盟友的鲜血换来了这个权力。
I said that for the next nine or ten years until about 1937, China developed in a whole variety of ways. The amount of roads doubled from around 20,000 to around 40,000 miles of proper metal roads, railways increased again, or less double in number from about 10,000 to 20,000 miles. But one of the most significant developments was the army.
我说过，接下来的九到十年中，大约直到1937年，中国以各种方式得到了发展。道路的数量增加了一倍左右，从大约2万英里的道路增加到大约4万英里的金属路面；铁路的数量也再次增加了，大约从1万英里增加到2万英里。但其中最重要的发展之一便是军队。
The Chinese army had up to that stage not really been modern and well-trained in the way that Western armies had been. The Japanese army was far superior to being very much reworked along the German model from the late 19th century, which is why they had managed to make so many spectacular conquests on the Chinese mainland even by that stage. So what are Chang's chief methods, chief aims, was to improve the quality of the Chinese army. And he turned to the country that was still most respected for its land army in Europe.
在那个时期，中国军队并没有像西方军队一样现代化和训练有素。相比之下，日本军队采用了德国的军事模式进行重塑，自19世纪末以来就远优于中国军队，这就是为什么他们在中国大陆上取得了很多惊人的胜利。张学良的主要方法和目标之一是提高中国军队的质量。他转向欧洲仍然最受尊敬的陆军国家。
And that was Germany. Now, this might seem a surprise because of course Germany had been defeated in World War I by this stage. But the Chinese military leaders had many of them seen the way in which the Japanese had drawn on German experience to train the army across the sea. And they thought that maybe some of the same techniques would be good for China. So various advisors, including men named Hans von Siegte and Alexander von Falkenhhausen German generals and senior officers, came to China and put the elite, the most crack troops of Chang Kai-shek's army through a training program.
那就是德国了。现在，这可能会让你感到惊讶，因为德国在一战中已经被击败了。但是，中国的军事领袖中有许多人看到了日本如何利用德国经验来训练海外的军队，他们认为这些技术可能也适用于中国。因此，包括汉斯.冯.西格特和亚历山大.冯.法尔肯豪森在内的各种顾问，德国将军和高级军官来到中国，对蒋介石部队的精英，即最顶尖的士兵进行了训练计划。
The problem was that by 1937 there weren't nearly enough of these troops, these modern troops trained to fight against the Japanese, maybe some 30,000 or so, which in an all-out war wasn't going to be nearly enough. And while the total manpower that China had at its disposal, technically speaking in 1937 was some 2 to 4 million people depending on how you counted the various armies, most of them were very ill-equipped in terms of modern technology. The soldiers were often recruited straight from the countryside and given only very basic training. And in terms of weaponry, technology, equipment, the Chinese army was woefully behind the Japanese one when war broke out in 1937.
问题在于，到1937年，这些部队已经严重不足了，这些现代部队受过训练，能够对抗日军，也许只有三万左右人数，而在总体战争中这个数目远远不够。虽然就中国拥有的总人力而言，从技术上讲，1937年有着200万至400万人，这取决于如何计算各种军队，但其中大部分都在现代技术装备方面缺乏。士兵们往往直接从农村招募，只接受基础训练，而且在武器、技术和装备方面，当1937年爆发战争时，中国军队远远落后于日本军队。
So how did this war between Japan and China then become embroiled within the Second World War? The war between China and Japan started as a regional war. It started as a war between China and Japan only. And for a long time the world would rest the world so it was separate for everything else that was going on. But it was clear by 1939 of course that war was breaking out across the Eurasian landmass. You then of course get the Declaration of War against Germany by Britain and France.
那么，日本和中国之间的这场战争是如何卷入第二次世界大战的呢？中日之间的战争起初只是一场地区性的战争，与其他正在发生的事情无关。但是，到了1939年，当然可以明显地看到战争在欧亚大陆爆发。接着，英国和法国发表了对德国的宣战。
So you have two wars happening in Eurasia at the same time, one on the far eastern end in China and one at the far western end in Western Europe. What of course was the key factor that was missing from both of these to make them global was the Americans. Both Winston Churchill in Britain after 1940 and Shanghai Shek in China from 1937 knew that the one key that could really turn in the lock of victory was to bring the Americans to bring a powerful, technologically enabled ally into the war. We often think in Britain about the way in which Winston Churchill talked about the importance of never surrendering and of holding out until the Americans could actually come in. We often forget that China was making exactly the same calculations.
你要在欧亚大陆上同时发生两场战争，一场在远东的中国，一场在远西的西欧。明显的关键因素是缺乏让它们变成全球性战争的美国。1940年后的英国首相温斯顿·丘吉尔和1937年后的中国首领蒋介石都知道，将美国招揽为强大且技术先进的盟友是能够真正扭转胜局的关键。我们经常在英国想到丘吉尔强调的不要轻易投降，坚持到美国入场的重要性，但我们往往忘记，中国同样在做同样的计算。
Chang Kai Shek, the Chinese leader, could have surrendered to the Japanese as early as 1938 when the situation looked really bad. He refused to do so. He insisted on continued resistance until the Americans could be brought in. And as we know it's a well-known story. The increasing desperation of Japanese imperialism in the Asia Pacific made the make bolder and bolder moves by 1940-41. They insisted on more territorial conquests so as to secure the oil, the rubber, the other metal and mineral resources that existed in East Asia.
中国领袖蒋介石在1938年形势十分严峻的时候本可以向日本投降，但他拒绝这样做。他坚持要持续抵抗，直到美国人加入战争。这是一个众所周知的故事。到了1940-41年，日本帝国主义在亚太地区的绝望情况越来越大，他们强调要征服更多的领土，以确保东亚已有的石油、橡胶、金属和矿物资源。
As a result, the Roosevelt administration in the United States became increasingly concerned. And finally, the Americans and the Japanese came to a showdown in December 1941. The realization that there will be war between the two of them and Pearl Harbor on the 8th of December 1941. And that was the moment that finally made the war global. The Asian side, including China, the European side and the Americans all in one war together. So from this point onwards, you had China, America and to some extent Britain all fighting against Japan.
结果，美国罗斯福政府越来越担心。最终，美国人和日本人在1941年12月进行了一场决战。他们意识到两国之间会有战争，珍珠港于1941年12月8日遭受攻击。这一刻终于让战争成为全球范围的。亚洲、包括中国，欧洲和美国都参与了同一场战争。因此，从这一点开始，中国、美国，甚至英国，都在与日本作战。
Did they become close allies to these countries? Since then the British Empire, China and the United States formally became allies against the Empire of Japan in early 1941. We'll note of course the Soviet Union remained neutral against Japan and in fact would remain so all the way until the very last week of the war in August 1945. But nonetheless, the alliance did not mean that the three Allied powers, China, the US, the British Empire were operating in smooth friendship and alliance. It was a very bumpy and a time-saving toxic alliance.
他们是否成为这些国家的亲密盟友？从那时起，英国帝国、中国和美国正式成为1941年初对日本帝国的盟友。当然，我们需要注意的是，苏联对日本保持中立，并且实际上会一直保持到1945年8月战争的最后一周。但是，联盟并不意味着三个盟友国——中国、美国和英国帝国在友谊和联盟方面运作得很顺畅。它是一个非常崎岖且充满毒性的联盟。
And the example that shows us really clearly is the disastrous campaign in Burma in spring 1942 from February to about May June. This was supposed to be a thrust to send the Japanese back. They had become very bold. They had invaded large parts of southern Burma. And a quarrel quickly broke out between the Allies as to whether it was a good idea or not to try and take Burma back. The British and the Chinese were more cautious. But the two sides also didn't wish to cooperate with each other very strongly.
一个很明显的例子就是1942年春季从2月到约5月或6月的缅甸灾难性战役。这场战役本意是为了将日本人击退。他们变得非常嚣张，已经入侵了缅甸南部的大部分地区。然而，盟军之间很快就爆发了争吵，争论是否重夺缅甸是个好主意。英国人和中国人比较谨慎，但是双方也不是非常强烈地希望彼此合作。
The British commander, General Wavell, was unenthusiastic about Chinese assistance. And Shanghai Shag thought that it would be a good idea if the Chinese preserved their strength. They were already very weak by 1941 and launching out in 1942 into Burma would have been perhaps a step too far. The American commander-in-chief, General Stillwell, General Joseph Stillwell, was known as Viniga Joe and not without reason.
英国指挥官瓦维尔将军对中国的协助不是很热情。沙各（Shanghai Shag）认为，如果中国人保留自己的力量，这将是一个好主意。到1941年，他们已经非常虚弱了，如果在1942年进军缅甸，可能会太过分了。美国总司令斯蒂威尔将军，约瑟夫·斯蒂威尔将军，被称为维尼加·乔，而且不是没有原因的。
He was a pretty a-sur-big, pretty tussly phrased sort of character. And he had been placed even as an American as the chief of staff of the Chinese armies and argued that even though there were no American troops on the ground in Burma, the Chinese troops should be used as part of an assault to try and get southern Burma back. A kind of bold attack that would eventually push the Japanese back to where they had come from.
他是一个相当嚣张、言辞激烈的角色。尽管他是美国人，却被任命为中国军队的参谋长，并提出主张：即使在缅甸没有美军部队，中国军队也应该作为进攻的一部分，试图重新夺回缅甸南部地区。这是一种大胆的攻击，最终将迫使日本人回到他们来的地方。
The attack was a disaster. Stillwell's Chinese troops were quickly surrounded. His tactic of trying to strike against the Japanese proved disastrous. The ill judged. And in fact, many of the troops never made it out of the Burma jungle alive. Some of those who did actually made it to India rather than to China. And the scene was set up for a continuing distrust and even contempt mutually between the Chinese, the American and the British sides in what became known as the China Burma India Theatre.
这次袭击是一场灾难。斯蒂尔韦尔的中国军队很快被包围了。他试图打击日本人的战术被证明是灾难性的。这是一个错误的判断。实际上，许多士兵从缅甸丛林中没有活着走出来。一些人实际上到达的是印度，而不是中国。这导致了中美英三方在所谓的中国缅甸印度战区彼此之间的持续不信任甚至鄙视的局面。
So it wasn't alliance, but it was one where the allies didn't really trust each other and China always seemed to come off last.
这并不是联盟，而是在这种联盟中盟友彼此并不完全信任，而且中国总是似乎处于劣势。
What kind of relationship did the leaders of these countries develop with each other? The leaders of the wartime alliance were all really larger than life characters in one where another president Roosevelt, Winston Churchill and Chang Kai-shek of China was stolen in the background as a neutral, but very much there in terms of calculations. And the relationship between them was extremely wary.
这些国家的领导人之间发展了什么样的关系？这个战时联盟的领袖们都是真正充满生气的人物，其中罗斯福总统、丘吉尔及中国的蒋介石在中立的背景下被抢占了光彩，但在计划上却是很有存在感的。他们之间的关系非常警惕。
Chang Kai-shek kept a very extensive diary, which has now been made available to researchers in the Hoover Institution in America. And it's absolutely fascinating to see the way in which he characterizes the various leaders.
蒋介石保持了一份非常广泛的日记，现在已经被提供给位于美国胡佛机构的研究人员。通过他所描绘和刻画各种领导人的方式，这份日记十分吸引人。
We tend to think, and I think understandably and rightly, that the British and the Americans were fighting in the cause of freedom against the Axis. And therefore, the slogans and the phrases that we tend to associate with them are very, very much heroic ones.
我们倾向于认为，而且我认为这是可以理解和正确的，英国人和美国人是为了自由的事业而与轴心国作战。因此，我们倾向于将其与英雄主义紧密联系在一起的口号和短语非常非常多。
This isn't the way that it seemed to Chang Kai-shek and he characterised them in often very negative terms. So Winston Churchill, he regarded as being basically the last of the imperialists, someone who despised the Chinese just as he despised the Indians and refused to allow them to be treated as full and equal partners. And the relationship between the Chinese and the British for that reason was pretty toxic during the war.
这与蒋介石的想象不同，他通常用非常负面的术语来描述他们。温斯顿·丘吉尔被他视为基本上是殖民主义者的最后一位，他看不起中国人就像他看不起印度人一样，拒绝让他们被视为平等的合作伙伴。由于这个原因，中国人和英国人之间的关系在战争期间相当不健康。
At one point, Chang wrote in his diary that he had seen the British ambassador of the time looking very humble after Pearl Harbor. And he said, they are looking very humble today. I would not have believed this at this proud Anglo-Saxon race. So there was really a touch of racial tension going on there.
在一个时刻，张写在他的日记中，他看到了当时的英国大使在珍珠港袭击后显得非常谦卑。他说，今天他们看起来非常谦卑，我不会相信这个骄傲的盎格鲁-撒克逊种族。因此，那里真的存在一些种族紧张关系。
Roosevelt, he was more in favour of partly because Roosevelt was more favourable to the Chinese and also was doing more in financial and other terms for the Chinese resistance. But he still felt that Roosevelt didn't really take China seriously. And at one point, Chang and his diary came up with a marvellous characterisation of the relationship between the four countries, China, the Soviets, the British and the Americans. He said, it's as if some weak person has met a hooligan, a kidnapper and a bully. And that's the relationship that China has with these three other powers.
罗斯福更偏向支持中国，主要是因为他对中国更有好感并且在金融和其他方面对中国的抵抗活动做出了更多的贡献。但他仍然觉得罗斯福并没有真正认真对待中国。在某个时刻，张学良和他的日记为四国（中国、苏联、英国和美国）之间的关系提供了一个绝妙的描述。他说，这就像一个虚弱的人遭遇了一个流氓、一个绑匪和一个恶霸。这就是中国与这三个大国之间的关系。
So that was for his private diary, but it was a pretty frank and pretty negative characterisation of the other allied leaders by Chang.
所以那是他的私人日记，但张的描述其他联盟领导人非常坦率和负面。
What kind of assistance were countries like Britain and the United States providing for China in the war against Japan? The assistance of the Allies, the other allies were providing fraud for China during the war was pretty limited. There were several reasons for this and not all of them were unjustifiable.
英国和美国等国家在抗日战争中为中国提供了什么帮助？同盟国和其他盟友为中国提供的援助在战争中相当有限。这其中有几个原因，并非所有原因都是无可指责的。
The first is that in the last resort, China's greatest value was to stay in the war. There was no realistic prospect that large numbers of Chinese troops were going to take part in the Pacific campaign or were going to thrust out from beyond Chinese territory. The exception was Burma where they fought without great success in 1942 and with a limited amount of success in 1944. But apart from that, China's main business was keeping China afloat. And for that reason, the amount of assistance that was given was limited.
首先，中国最大的价值在于最终参战。毫无现实前景表明大量中国部队将参与太平洋战役或从中国领土之外进攻。除了1942年在缅甸作战时未能取得很大成功，以及1944年获得有限的胜利外，中国主要任务是让中国保持生存。因此，提供的援助数量有限。
The term lendlies is perhaps the best known one for the kind of American financial and material assistance that was given to the Allies. But it's worth noting that throughout the war, except for the very last year, 1945, less than 1% of the total amount of lendlies given to all of the Allies was given to China. The vast majority of it was given either to the Soviet Union or to the British Empire.
"Lendlies"这个词可能是最为人熟知的，用来形容美国向同盟国提供的财政和物资援助。但值得注意的是，在整场战争期间，除了最后一年1945年，向中国提供的Lendlies总额不到所有同盟国所获得援助的1%。绝大部分援助都提供给了苏联或英国帝国。
The Burma here tales, which are all true of corruption and blackmarketering and the misuse of foreign resources in wartime China. It has to be remembered that the total proportion of assistance that was given by the Allies to China was very small. The other thing that bear in mind though is that China was pretty much cut off from the rest of the world by 1941 by the time of Pearl Harbor. Because China had made this brave, but in many ways very risky decision to fight alone against China in 1937. Its entire eastern seaboard with the ports were cut off.
这里的缅甸传说都是有关贪污、黑市贩卖和在中国战时滥用外国资源等真实情况。需要记住的是，同盟国对中国提供的援助很少。但另一件要记住的事是，到了1941年珍珠港事件时，中国几乎被隔绝在世界之外。这是因为中国在1937年做出了勇敢却很多方面都非常冒险的决定，决定孤身与日本作战。中国的整个东海岸都被封锁了，港口也被封闭了。
After the fall of France in 1940, Vichy France was neutral, but the Japanese invaded French Indochina, preventing the Indochinese ports being used to get to China. The only real supply that remained for the Burma Road was also cut off after Pearl Harbor. So the only real supplies that remained for the Chinese were the very perilous hump journeys, the flights that went from British India over the so-called Burma hump, a very perilous Himalayan route really, into wartime Chongqing, the Chinese capital. And the amount of goods that could be transported on those flights was of course very limited, adding to the scarcity of goods which increased inflation, blackmarketering and corruption. So in terms of supplying China, there was a sort of toxic circle emerging, a sort of vicious circle by the end of the war that meant that China's position became weaker and weaker, even as it continued to resist.
在1940年法国沦陷后，维希法国保持中立，但日本占领了法属印度支那，阻止了印支港口供搭通往中国的航班。珍珠港事件后，通往缅甸之路上唯一的实际补给也被切断。因此，中国唯一剩下的实际补给就是极其危险的驼峰运输，即从英属印度起飞，穿越喜马拉雅山脉的所谓缅甸隆起，直接飞往中国首都重庆。这些航班可以运输的货物数量是非常有限的，导致物资短缺，进而加剧了通货膨胀、黑市和腐败。因此，在向中国供应的问题上，出现了一种有害循环或恶性循环，战争终结时，中国的形势越来越弱，即使继续抵抗也无济于事。
Now, in the article that you've written for the magazine, you talk about the huge losses that China suffered during this war. How was it able to continue fighting for all of eight years while suffering losses in nature? China suffered some of the most tremendous losses of any country during World War II. The numbers were never fully statistically compiled, but the best estimates that we have is that something like 14 to perhaps as many as 20 million Chinese were killed during the war, not as many as the horrific loss of life in the Soviet Union, but still huge. Some 80 or more million Chinese became refugees at some point during the war, and the vast majority of the industrialisation that had been started in China simply went by the board. It disappeared pretty much.
在你为这本杂志撰写的文章中，你谈到了中国在这场战争中遭受的巨大损失。尽管遭受了巨大的损失，中国是如何能够坚持八年的战斗呢？中国在二战中遭受了一些最惨重的损失。虽然这些数字从未被完全统计，但我们最好的估计是在这场战争中，约有1400万到2000万中国人丧生。虽然不及苏联惊人的生命损失，但仍属于巨大的损失。80多万中国人在战争期间成为了难民，绝大部分中国已经开始的工业化计划也几乎被抛弃了。
Now these facts, led many people at the time, logically, to ask, can China continue to resist? And many people thought it would fall within a few months and years of the beginning of the war. It didn't do that. It continued to resist to the end, all the way to August 1945, but it did so at a terrible price. On troops, for instance, the first tens of thousands of best-trained, German-trained Chinese troops were killed very early in the war. Most of them were killed in places like the Battle of Shanghai in the autumn of 1937. So to keep recruiting, the Chinese army had to use more and more brutal tactics. At first, they used a lottery system and they used incentives such as families being given food when their soldiers, their sons signed up for the army.
在那个时候，这些事实让许多人合理地问道，中国能否继续抵抗？许多人认为它会在战争开始后的几个月和几年内崩溃。但它并没有如此。它一直坚持到1945年8月的结束，但代价非常惨痛。例如，在部队方面，最初的数万名接受过德国训练的中国精英部队在战争初期就被杀害了。他们中的大多数人是在1937年秋季的上海战役中被杀害的。因此，为了继续招募士兵，中国军队不得不使用越来越残忍的战术。起初，他们使用了彩票制度，并使用了激励措施，例如当家庭成员的儿子加入军队时，家庭可以获得粮食。
But by the end, they were simply conscripting people, grabbing people out of villages, tying them up literally with ropes, and taking them to camps that were a long way from home so that even if they managed to undo their ropes, they wouldn't simply be able to run back to their home villages. Other things involved terrible decisions such as the lack of food in China to feed the army. This led to grain requisitioning the grabbing of the peasants grain out in the provinces of Hanan, in Central China, in mid 1942, 1943. And this led to a massive famine. Something like four million Chinese were killed starving to death in the famine of 1943, because the food had to be taken for the army, otherwise the armies would have collapsed. But at the same time, no provision was made for the peasants.
但最终，他们只是强迫征兵，从村庄里抓人，用绳子捆绑他们，把他们带到离家很远的营地，即使他们设法解开绳子，也不能简单地跑回家。其他一些可怕的决定包括中国没有足够的食物来喂养军队。这导致了1942年至1943年间在中国中部河南省抢夺农民粮食的谷物征用。这导致了一场大规模的饥荒。大约有四百万中国人在1943年的饥荒中被饿死，因为粮食必须为军队所用，否则军队将崩溃。但与此同时，没有为农民提供任何保障。
So China did survive till the end in 1945, almost miraculously, but the price that it had to pay to do so in terms of the sufferings endured by its own people, visited on it by its own nationalist government, were essentially the building blocks for the communist revolution. By the time the war against Japan ended, the country was ripe for a change of government, and we no longer have trust or confidence in the nationalist government that had, as they saw it, abused the country so strongly to stay in the war. And as a result, the way was clear for Mao Zedong to actually launch the communist revolution, which would take over China just four years later.
所以中国在1945年幸存下来了，几乎是奇迹般的，但为了做到这一点，它必须付出代价，即由其自己的民族主义政府所造成的本土人民的苦难，这些苦难本质上是共产主义革命的基石。当对日战争结束时，中国已经成熟了一种政府变革的需要，我们不再相信或信任民族主义政府，他们认为政府滥用了国家，以便坚持战争。因此，毛泽东发动共产主义革命的道路也就清晰了，仅仅四年之后，共产主义就接管了中国。
And speaking of that, what was the role of the communist within China during the war? It's very important to understand the different roles of the two major forces that resisted Japan during the war, the nationalists under Chen Kayshek and the communist under Mao Zedong.
说到这个，中国共产党在战争中扮演了什么角色？了解在战争期间抵抗日本的两大主要力量，即陈可爱领导的国民党和毛泽东领导的共产党的不同角色是非常重要的。
We sometimes hear history written in two extremes. Some people suggest often in China itself that the communists were the only people who did any fighting. Chen Kayshek and the nationalists did very little, and the communists were in the vanguard of all the fighting. Others more recently have suggested that the communists really did no fighting at all, they were simply waiting for the Japanese to be defeated by the nationalists and the Americans and keeping their forces safe for a civil war, which they would win.
我们有时听到两种极端的历史观。有些人经常在中国本土上建议，共产党是唯一参加过任何战斗的人。蒋介石和国民党几乎没有做出贡献，而共产党则在所有战斗中处于先锋。近来，有些人则认为共产党根本没有打仗，他们只是在等待日本被国民党和美国打败，并保持他们的力量安全，为内战做准备以获得最终胜利。
Neither of these positions is quite accurate, I think. Really the nationalists and the communists were carrying out different sorts of warfare. The big set piece battles were almost entirely carried out by Chen Kayshek's nationalists, some four million men under arms at its height. And this included the big set piece battles, places like Changshan, Tyra Dhuang, and Wuhan. On the other hand, the communists who were up in the north of China carried out a great many very important guerrilla campaigns.
我认为这两种立场都不太准确。实际上，民族主义者和共产党人进行的是不同类型的战争。规模较大的定式战斗几乎全部由国民党的陈果夫进行，其最高时期武装人员数量达400万人。这其中包括诸如昌山、太原、武汉等地的定式战斗。另一方面，北方的共产党人进行了许多非常重要的游击战。
They knew that they could not win on their own, but they did a great deal to harass and hassle the Japanese invaders in the north of China in the areas around the railway lines where they had appeared. So I think what it's fair to say is that the vast majority of the battle fighting was not done by the communists. It was done by their nationalist opponents and temporary allies, but the communists also played a significant role in the guerrilla resistance against the Japanese, as well of course as beginning to fomend the social revolution, which would eventually come to rule all of China.
他们知道他们不能单独赢得胜利，但在中国北部铁路线附近的地区，他们非常努力地骚扰和麻烦日本侵略者。因此，我认为可以公正地说，绝大部分的战斗并不是由共产党人完成的。这是由他们的民族主义对手和临时盟友完成的，但共产党人在对抗日本的游击抵抗中也发挥了重要作用，当然，他们也开始鼓动社会革命，最终统治了整个中国。
You mentioned there about being temporary allies, so were the communists and the nationalists able to put aside their differences during this period? The communists and the nationalists had essentially been at Dagger's Drawn, or we should say, the stock guns drawn really between 1927 when the two sides fought each other and Chiang Kai-shiek essentially turned on his former communist allies and the outbreak of war in 1937.
你提到了暂时结盟的问题，那么在这段时间里共产党和民族主义者能够放下彼此的分歧吗？实际上，在1927年两边互相打仗并蒋介石背叛他以前的共产主义盟友，以及1937年战争爆发期间，共产党和民族主义者一直处于钢刃对决的状态。
But by the mid-1930s, it was very clear to all observers that war with Japan was an extremely strong likelihood. And as a result, secret negotiations, feelers started to go out between the communists and the nationalists at that point. And the sides realized that while they were enemies with each other, it was also very important that they should be united in the fight against Japan, which they could see would be a more immediate battle that was on its way.
到了20世纪30年代中期，所有的观察者都清楚地认识到，与日本发生战争是非常有可能的。因此，共产党和国民党之间开始进行秘密谈判和探索，双方意识到尽管他们是对立的敌人，但在对抗日本这个更加紧迫的战斗中团结一致非常重要。他们预见到这场战斗即将到来。
And assistance in creating this rather unlikely alliance came from a rather unlikely source. That was Joseph Stalin. Stalin made it very clear that he did not think that the communist, the Chinese communist, should try and fomend a revolution, which would overthrow Chiang Kai-shiek. And his reason for that was very simple. If Chiang Kai-shiek was the only really recognized major Chinese leader at the time fell, then who knew who would replace him? He might well be replaced by one-ging way, one of his deputies, who was much perceived as being much more pro-Japanese and might well bring about some kind of collaboration with Japan.
这个相当不可能的联盟的创建得到了一个相当不可能的来源的帮助，那就是约瑟夫·斯大林。斯大林非常清楚地表示，他不认为中国共产党应该试图煽动一场革命，推翻蒋介石。他的理由非常简单。如果蒋介石是当时唯一被承认的主要中国领导人，如果他倒台了，谁知道谁会取代他？他可能会被他的一位副手——花容道——取代，后者被认为更倾向于日本，并可能带来某种与日本的合作。
So in the interests of Stalin, despite the fact that his anti-communism was very much at odds with Chiang Kai-shiek's anti-communist nationalism, for reasons of strategy, he advocated that the communists and the nationalists should form an alliance together. That meant that when one warlord, a man named Zhang Xiaoliang, who was called the Young Marshal, kidnapped Chiang Kai-shiek in December of 1936, thinking that this might force him into an alliance with the communists against the Japanese. There was a great lot of flurry in China, in which Stalin was also at some level involved, trying to make sure that Chiang Kai-shiek was freed, because observers from all sides realized that he was essential. He was the one figurehead who would be necessary if China went to war with Japan and would embody the resistance.
因为战略需要，斯大林为了自己的利益，尽管他的反共主义与蒋介石的反共民族主义非常不一致，他仍然支持共产党和国民党联合。这意味着，当一位名叫张小良的军阀（被称为“少帅”）于 1936 年 12 月绑架了蒋介石，以期通过迫使他与共产党联盟来对抗日本，中国发生了一系列骚动。在这些事件中，斯大林也在某种程度上参与其中，试图确保蒋介石能够获释，因为所有人都意识到他至关重要。如果中国与日本交战，他将成为必要的象征并代表抵抗。
The communists were important, but they weren't nearly as central to that as was Chiang. We were talking earlier about the huge losses that China suffered. How was it that despite achieving many victories, Japan wasn't able to secure victory over China? Japan was a young country in a hurry, by 1941 and Pearl Harbor. It was a country that felt it wanted to expand its empire, as had many other imperial powers, Britain, France, most notably, and yet felt it wasn't getting its historical destiny.
共产党是重要的，但其核心地位远远不及蒋介石。我们之前谈过中国遭受的巨大损失。那么，尽管日本取得了许多胜利，为什么它不能在中国获得胜利呢？到1941年和珍珠港事件时，日本是一个匆忙的年轻国家。它想要扩张自己的帝国，像许多其他帝国主义强国一样，如英国、法国，特别是，但感觉自己没有得到历史命运的应有地位。
And therefore, when it had launched its war into the Chinese mainland, it did so with this spirit of, in some ways, racially tinged and certainly very triumphalist, imperial intention. But the Japanese had swallowed a bit too much of their own propaganda. They genuinely come to believe much of the racially tinged and highly patronizing language that they had used about the Chinese, claiming that China was weak, that it was a country that was corrupt, whose army wasn't worth much, and whose people would welcome the firm hand of Japanese imperial rule.
因此，当日本向中国内地发起战争时，他们怀着某种种族色彩和确信胜利的帝国意图。但是，日本人过于相信自己的宣传。他们真正相信了许多关于中国的种族主义和高傲的言论，声称中国很弱、腐败、军队毫无价值，人民渴望日本帝国统治的强硬手段。
When they invaded China, they found this was very much not the case. Although they knew they couldn't win, the Chinese armies continued to resist both communist and nationalist against the Japanese. The wider population also continued in many cases to fight back against the Japanese invaders. And by mid-1938, the Japanese realized that far from a quick conquest of the Chinese mainland, which is what they had expected to have, they were bogged down in the middle of China. They managed to get to the city of Wuhan in central China, but could not thrust in further west to take the wartime capital of Chongqing, which sat in the southwest on top of cliffs, which made it very, very difficult to invade.
当他们侵略中国时，他们发现实际情况完全不是那样。尽管他们知道自己不能赢，但中国军队继续抵抗日本侵略，不分共产党和国民党。许多普通人也在许多情况下继续反击日本侵略者。到了1938年中期，日本人意识到他们并没有快速征服中国大陆，这正是他们预期的情况。他们设法到达中国中部的武汉市，但无法向西推进，以夺取战时首都重庆。重庆坐落在西南部的悬崖上，使得入侵变得非常困难。
So the Japanese found themselves bogged down in what became minus the China quagmire, and it's highly nearly a million Japanese troops were placed in China desperately trying to bring about the surrender of Chang and the destruction of the communists. As a result, the stakes heightened in East Asia as a whole. By 1941, the Japanese decided that they had to essentially expand the conflict to the whole of East and Southeast Asia, together the resources they needed to conquer the whole region. But a large part of this was also based on the idea that they had to put more resources into finally conquering China.
因此，日本人发现自己陷入了所谓的“中国泥潭”，近百万日本军队被派往中国，拼命试图迫使张学良投降并摧毁共产党。因此，整个东亚的利益得到了提高。到1941年，日本人决定必须将冲突扩展到整个东南亚地区，以获取征服整个地区所需的资源。但其中很大一部分也基于他们必须投入更多资源来最终征服中国的想法。
However, they simply couldn't do it. The amount of troops was one thing, but the amount of control that they had over the countryside, that they had over the resources of China, was always very, very limited. Because Chang's nationalists continued to resist, they refused to allow a total surrender to the Japanese. And that meant that large parts of the grain growing parts of China, which fed the country, some of the railways, and a great deal of the, at least some of the financial resources of China remained with the resistance. And that proved an impossible barrier for the Japanese to overcome. They were technologically enabled. They were a strong country, but in the end they had limited resources and were never able to make that final thrust that would defeat the Chinese. They made one last try in 1944 during the massive Operation Ichigou, as it became named, the last big thrust into central China, when over half a million Chinese, sorry, Japanese troops were put into the battle. But even there, though they destroyed many parts of the last Chinese defense in central China, they were not able to make the central, the final conquest of the Chinese territory. Even by the end of the war in 1945, they never managed it.
然而，他们却无法做到。在中国，他们虽然拥有大量的军队，但对农村、对中国的资源的控制却非常有限。由于蒋介石的国民党持续抵抗，他们不肯完全向日本投降。这意味着中国许多供养整个国家的粮食种植区域、铁路和一些财政资源都留给了抵抗力量，对日本来说，这是不可逾越的障碍。尽管技术上十分先进，作为一个强大的国家，他们的资源一直相对有限，他们无法发动最后一击，击败中国。在1944年的巨大行动“一号作战”中，他们最后一次尝试进攻中国中部，派出了超过50万的日本士兵参战。虽然摧毁了中国中部最后的许多防御，但他们仍无法占领中国的领土。即使到1945年战争结束，他们也没有做到。
So how important do you think the Chinese contribution was to the overall Allied victory, particularly in Asia? The final Chinese contribution to the victory, the Allied victory in World War II in Asia, shouldn't be either underestimated or overestimated. It's not the case that China was the central battlefield on which the war was won or lost. In Asia, in the end, that was the Pacific, where the Americans and the British and their allies fought off an island to Ireland, and then finally, of course, through the bombing and threatened invasion of the Japanese, home islands brought the war to an end.
你认为在整个盟军胜利中，特别是在亚洲，中国的贡献有多重要？
中国对于二战期间盟军在亚洲的胜利作出了贡献，但不能被高估或低估。事实上，中国并非是战争赢或输的中心战场。在亚洲，最终的胜利是在太平洋取得的，美国、英国及其盟友在各个岛屿上进行了战斗，最终通过轰炸和威胁日本本土的入侵，结束了这场战争。
But I think it's fair to say that without the Chinese resistance for eight long years, that task would have been much harder. Let's not forget that China could have surrendered very early on in 1938. Many observers, including British and American diplomats, thought that it might do so. Had it done so, the whole of China would have fallen to Japan very early on. It would have been a massive land base for the Japanese army, a stable, pacified China, which with its mineral resources, its railways, its huge manpower, many of whom might have been put into a Japanese supporting collaborationist army to fight the Allies.
我认为可以公正地说，如果没有中国抵抗长达八年，那个任务将会更加困难。我们不要忘记，中国在1938年就可以很早地投降。许多观察家，包括英国和美国的外交官，都认为中国可能会这样做。如果中国真的投降了，整个中国就会很早被日本攻占。这对日本军队来说将是一个巨大的陆基，一个稳定、平静的中国，拥有矿产资源、铁路、巨大的人力资源，其中许多人可能会被纳入一个支持日本的协作军队来对抗联盟国家。
At the same time, it's also important to understand that the Chinese were also a very large part of Asia's population. 600 million people or so lived in China at the time. And for them, victory in war was also important, the idea for many of them of a nationalist victory, of creating a strong nation state for themselves, was an important end goal in and of itself. So, I think it's fair to say that the Chinese contribution was very important for the Allied cause, you have to just do the virtual history and think what would have happened if they had surrendered early.
同时，我们也需要理解中国人在亚洲人口中占据了相当大的比例。当时，中国有大约6亿人口。对于他们来说，战争胜利同样非常重要，许多人渴望实现民族主义胜利，建立一个强大的国家也是一个重要的目标。因此，我认为可以说中国的贡献对于联盟的胜利非常重要。我们不妨想象一下如果他们早早投降会造成什么后果。
But we shouldn't forget that the importance of China was not just for the other Allies. It was also for the Chinese themselves. They are today a very large proportion of the world's population. And they judge at least part of their own history of relationships with the Western powers in terms of what was done and what was not done for them and to them during the Second World War. That was actually something I was going to come onto.
我们不应忘记，中国的重要性不仅仅针对其他盟国。它对中国人自己也是重要的。现在，他们是世界人口中很大的一部分。并且他们至少部分地通过二战期间西方大国对他们的行为和不作为来考量自己与西方大国的历史关系。这实际上是我接下来要谈的话题。
How do people in China today view this war? Oddly enough, after more than 70 years, the Second World War is becoming more and not less important in everyday Chinese conversations, whether it's on television, whether it's in books, whether it's even in video games, which of course multiplayer video games have become very, very big in China. And many of the games that are most popular are themed on fighting the Japanese in World War II. So World War II is still very present in the popular culture of China if you know where to look.
如今，中国人如何看待这场战争？有趣的是，70多年过去了，第二次世界大战在中国日常谈话中变得越来越重要，不是越来越不重要。 无论是在电视上，还是在书籍中，甚至是在视频游戏中，特别是多人在线的视频游戏在中国已经变得非常非常流行。而且，许多最受欢迎的游戏都以二战期间对日本的战斗为主题。因此，如果你知道从哪里下手，二战仍然非常存在于中国的流行文化中。
But it's not necessarily entirely happy occurrence that this is being remembered because the way in which many young Chinese think about this today is as a war where China was not given sufficient credit for its contribution by the Allies. There is a sense that China has become a forgotten ally, the last of the four powers along with the Soviet Union, Britain and the United States, that actually continued to resist, that continued to fight, that didn't just surrender, as of course one has to say, France did. And for that reason, there's often strongly nationalistic feeling in China today, that there hasn't been sufficient acknowledgement of the Chinese contribution, and that just as China today is seeking to play a wider role in the world, so it is that they also played a role in the past.
然而这并不一定是一件完全令人愉快的事情，因为如今许多年轻的中国人对此的看法是，中国在二战中没有得到盟国足够的认可。有一种感觉是，中国已经成为一个被遗忘的盟国，是四个继续抵抗的大国之一，包括苏联、英国和美国，他们并没有像法国一样投降。因此，今天中国经常有强烈的民族主义情感，认为中国的贡献没有得到足够的认可，就像今天的中国寻求在世界上扮演更广泛的角色一样，他们在过去也扮演了一个角色。
One has to say it's also being used in a very nationalistic way often in China, in which the history is sometimes distorted. It's not at knowledge for instance that many Chinese, as to be said, collaborated with the Japanese during the wartime, including Wang Jingwei, the former nationalist leader, who went over to the Japanese side. These are stories that are still very difficult to tell in China because they break up this heroic nationalist narrative of the Chinese simply resisting against Japan.
必须说，这种使用方式在中国也经常被用来表达民族主义，有时候还会歪曲历史。比如说，许多中国人合作支持日本在战争中，包括前民族主义领导人汪精卫，曾投降日本方面。这些故事在中国仍然很难讲述，因为它们破坏了简单反抗日本的英勇民族主义叙事。
At the same time, there's also a lot of interest in remembering aspects of the war. One of the big hits on Chinese television, a couple of years ago, was a program which found the veterans of the war, who had fought not for the communist armies, but for the nationalist ones.
同时，人们对于战争的某些方面也有着浓厚的兴趣。几年前，中国电视台热播了一档节目，找到了那些并非为共产军队而是为国民军队而战的老兵们，大受欢迎。
These men had not been allowed to tell their stories under the rule of Chairman Mao because of course he maintained very strongly the idea that the only people who had really fought effectively in China were the Chinese communists. But finally with the softening of attitudes in the 1990s and 2000s, it became possible for the nationalist veterans of Burma and of China to talk about their experiences and their record. And the television program telling their stories actually became something of a big hit as Chinese people for the first time saw a hidden wartime story that had never before been told.
在毛主席统治时期，这些人因为毛主席坚定维护中国共产党是唯一真正有效战斗的人而被禁止讲述自己的故事。但随着1990年代和2000年代态度的软化，缅甸和中国的民族主义老兵可以谈论他们的经历和业绩。而且，讲述他们故事的电视节目实际上成为一件大事，因为中国人第一次看到一个从未被讲述的隐藏的战时故事。
You mentioned before about how the Chinese feel that their contribution has been overlooked. And I think it probably is true here in the West that we don't think about China as one of the major allies. Why do you think that's the case?
你之前提到过中国人感到他们的贡献被忽略了。我觉得在西方人眼中，我们可能不认为中国是主要盟友之一。你认为这是为什么？
解释：西方人可能没有意识到中国是主要盟友之一，原因不明。对此应该加深对中国的了解和尊重。
I think we don't tend to think of China as a major ally for two reasons. One is political, very quickly after 1945, China changed from being a tentative but real wartime ally to being the enemy. The communist revolution under Chairman Mao meant that it became this large, closed, sullen Asian giant with which we did very little trade or business. And therefore understanding and getting into its history became harder and it seemed less important in many ways.
我认为我们不倾向于将中国视为一个重要的盟友，有两个原因。第一个是政治原因，很快在1945年之后，中国从一个试探但真正的战时盟友变成了敌人。毛主席领导的共产主义革命意味着它成为一个庞大、封闭、阴沉的亚洲巨人，并与我们之间几乎没有贸易或业务往来。因此，理解和了解中国历史变得更加困难，而且在许多方面似乎不那么重要。
By that stage of course Japan was also a Western ally and therefore the relationship between China and Japan in our eyes had rather flipped around and reversed. The other reason though I think is that we have over the last few decades been expanding our understanding of the global nature of World War II thanks to the opening of the archives and also more global perspectives.
当然，在那个阶段，日本也是西方联盟的一部分，因此在我们眼中，中国和日本之间的关系已经发生了颠倒和逆转。我认为另一个原因是，由于档案的公开和更全球化的视角，我们在过去几十年中逐渐扩展对第二次世界大战全球性质的理解。
For instance, it took really until the 1980s and 90s when Russian archives started opening up for people to realise in the West quite how central the Soviet contribution had been to World War II. In recent years there's been a lot more attention to the empire contribution to British wartime experience. So the knowledge that over a million Indians fought on the empire side in World War II has come much more centrally into the story which used to be of fighting simply alone in the British Isles without the empire coming into the story. And I think China is one of the last pieces of that jigsaw.
举个例子，直到上世纪80和90年代俄罗斯档案开始开放，人们才意识到苏联对二战的中心贡献非常重要。近年来，英国战争期间帝国的贡献受到更多关注。因此，知道超过一百万印度人在二战期间为帝国而战的信息逐渐成为故事的核心，而以前的故事仅记录了英国本土的战斗，没有涉及帝国。我认为中国是这个难题的最后一个拼图。
Now that the Chinese archives are opening up enabling books like mine to be written and now that Chinese and other Western researchers are working together on this history, this is very much a joint effort I would say between the Chinese side and the Western side. People are beginning to realise the devastating scale of the war in China and also the important contribution of China resisting, staying in the war and ultimately making the Allied task easier of defeating Japan. So I think a combination of politics, changing politics and changing history and historiography have really changed the situation and China is now going to be much more central in our understandings of the total story of World War II.
随着中国的档案开放，使得像我这样的书籍得以被写作，并且现在中国和其他西方的研究人员正在合作研究这段历史，我想说这是中西方之间的共同努力。人们开始意识到中国在战争中遭受了巨大的损失，同时对于中国抵抗，坚持参战并最终使盟国击败日本的重要贡献也得到肯定。因此，我认为政治，历史和史学的变化真正改变了形势，中国现在将在我们对于第二次世界大战整个故事的理解中变得更加核心。
That was Rana Mita. China's war with Japan, 1937 to 1945, the struggle for survival has just been published by Alan Lane. And as I mentioned, Rana has written an article for our July issue which is out now in organ news agents and in our many digital formats.
那是拉娜·米塔。她写了新书《中国与日本的战争(1937-1945)：生存的斗争》，已由艾伦·莱恩出版。正如我提到的，拉娜还为我们七月号的杂志撰写了一篇文章，现在已经在机关报店和我们的许多数字格式中发布。
It's not long now until the Duchess of Cambridge is due to give birth to the latest Royal baby. Hers and Prince William's child will be third in line to the throne, regardless of its sex, but this hasn't always been the case. And as our section editor Charlotte Hodgman found out when she spoke to historian and royal expert Dr Kate Williams, the British Royal family's quest for a male heir has often been an eventful process.
凯特王妃即将分娩皇室最新的宝宝。无论男女，他们的孩子都将成为王位的第三继承人，但这并不总是这样。我们的部分编辑夏洛特·霍奇曼在采访历史学家和皇室专家凯特·威廉姆斯博士时发现，英国王室寻找男性继承人的历程经常是个精彩的过程。
So when discussing the importance of royal babies, most people will probably think of Henry VIII and his desperate quest for a male heir. But what was Henry's reaction to the birth of his only surviving son, the future Edward VI and 1537, and how did this differ to the birth of Mary and Elizabeth before?
因此，当讨论皇室宝宝的重要性时，大多数人可能会想到亨利八世和他对男嗣的渴求。但是他在他唯一存活的儿子，未来的爱德华六世，于1537年出生时的反应是什么，与之前玛丽和伊丽莎白的出生有何不同？
When he finally had a son, the future Edward VI in 1537 Henry was overjoyed. He was really thrilled. This was completely different to the births of Mary and Elizabeth. Mary, all she was to him, was an indication that his wife would one day be able to have a son, of course. It didn't happen. Elizabeth was a complete disappointment who really secured her mother's doom. Edward VI, completely different. It was joy, it was jubilation, not just for the King, not just for his court and for the whole country.
1537年，当他最终有一个儿子，未来的爱德华六世时，亨利感到无比高兴和激动。这与玛丽和伊丽莎白的诞生完全不同。对他来说，玛丽只是表明他的妻子有一天也能生一个儿子的迹象。但事实证明这并没有发生。伊丽莎白是一个彻底的失望，她真正地导致了她母亲的厄运。然而，爱德华六世则完全不同。这是欢乐和喜悦，不仅是国王，而是整个国家和宫廷的喜悦。
And how did people react then, how did people celebrate? When the Prince was born at two o'clock in the morning on the 12th of October, it was a great celebration for the country. Two thousand gunfires were shot from the tower, bonfires were lit across the country, church bells rang. This was the sun, this was the future King that everyone had been waiting for.
那时人们是如何反应的，如何庆祝的呢？ 10月12日凌晨两点，王子出生了，这对整个国家来说都是一个盛大的庆典。塔楼上开了两千炮，全国点燃了营火，教堂钟声响彻云霄。这是太阳，这是人人都期待已久的未来国王。
So was there disappointment then at the births of Mary and Elizabeth? Is that what the general feeling was it? There was great disappointment at the births of Mary and Elizabeth, Mary, while they're less so because when she was born, essentially the King and the people thought that she was just going to be a girl and then Catherine of Arrogone would then go on to have lots of sons as was often the case. But because that didn't happen, well that was completely different. But initially, her birth was just an anticlimax, really, not the sun that everyone had hoped for, but still she was a girl, she was proof that her mother could carry a healthy child.
那么在玛丽和伊丽莎白出生时是否有失望呢？这是一般的感受吗？玛丽和伊丽莎白的出生引起了极大的失望。尽管玛丽的失望要少一些，因为当她出生时，基本上国王和人民认为她只是一个女孩，而卡瑟琳·阿拉贡会接着生许多儿子，这通常是情况。但是，由于这并没有发生，结果完全不同了。但最初，她的出生只是一个反高潮，不是每个人都希望的太阳，但她仍然是一个女孩，证明了她的母亲可以怀上一个健康的孩子。
But really, essentially in history, the only point of girls is to prove that the mother can carry a healthy child. Boys are what is wanted, what is important. Girls can be useful as marrying into other families, essentially as securing bloodlines, but they aren't actually what a King wants. They do not secure the succession. Really, when you look at the history of the British monarchy, a lot of it is about the search for a son. Women are just not important. This is completely the case for Henry VIII. What was different about the birth of Elizabeth was that everyone thought that was going to be a son. It was really Anne-Belin's last chance and that was an incredible disappointment. That's a huge disappointment and it did secure her mother's doom and as well, the doom of many of her supporters as well.
在历史上，女孩的唯一作用实际上就是证明母亲能够生出健康的孩子。大家所期望的，所看重的是男孩。女孩可以用来嫁到其他家族，从而确保血脉延续。但她们并不是国王真正想要的。她们无法确保继承权。实际上，当你观察英国王室的历史时，你会发现很多都是在寻找儿子。女性并不重要。这对亨利八世来说完全是个例外。伊丽莎白诞生的不同之处在于，每个人都以为那会是一个儿子。这是安·贝林最后的机会，结果却是极度失望。这是个巨大的失望，导致了她母亲的厄运，以及她的许多支持者的厄运。
The fact she wasn't a boy was absolutely terrible to Henry VIII. Of course, any child is a blessing, but a girl is of a small blessing, particularly for the royals, particularly for women like Anne-Belin, who had staked her future, her hopes, had staked a lot on having a son. How are fertility issues and childless marriages viewed to society then? Nowadays it's a not-and-common choice to be child-free, to choose not to have children and that's fine. That's just not the case in history. In history you have children and often you have as many children as you can to secure your succession if you are royal. So if you are not royal to secure your property, the more children you have, the more people you have to look after you in your old age, the more people you have to bring money in and of course without proper contraception, a lot of people didn't have any choice.
对亨利八世来说，他的孩子不是男孩真是太可怕了。当然，任何孩子都是一种祝福，但对于皇室成员而言，一个女孩只是一种小小的祝福，尤其是像安·贝林这样的女人，她把自己的未来、希望和很多东西都押在了生个儿子上。当时，社会是如何看待不育和无子女的婚姻的呢？如今，选择不要孩子已经成为一种不那么罕见的选择，选择不生孩子也是可以的。但在历史上情况并非如此，历史上你必须要生孩子，如果你是皇室成员，你要生尽可能多的孩子以确保继承权。如果不是皇室成员，生越多的孩子，就有越多的人在你老年时照顾你，带来更多的钱。当然，在没有避孕措施的情况下，很多人没有选择。
So nowadays our notion of a large family is probably about four children. We find that one of the large amount of children, but when we look back in history, in the cheetah times in the 18th century, in the 19th century we see families of 13, 14, 15 and that's not uncommon. And certainly they're all by the same woman as well. So when you look back in history, people who found themselves childless, very much excluded from society, women, or they had nothing to talk about to other women, and men, simply men believed in their virility. And a man who believed in his virility would feel very humiliated next to a friend, a business associate who had ten sons.
如今，我们认为一个大家庭大约有四个孩子。在历史上回顾，比如18世纪的尺度时期和19世纪，我们可以发现有13、14、15个孩子的家庭不少见。而且，这些孩子都是由同一个女人生产的。回顾历史，我们可以发现那些没有孩子的人会被社会所排斥，女人会没有话题可以跟其他女性聊天，男人则相信自己的男子气概。一个男人如若相信自己的男子气概，当与一个拥有10个儿子的朋友或商业伙伴站在一起时，他会感到非常羞愧。
This was exactly the case for Lord Nelson surrounded by his captains who had huge amounts of sons, lots of budding, blossoming daughters, and he had no children. So really a man wants a son and a man wants as many sons as possible. And that for wife is what you need to secure your position, to secure your love, to secure your future. What you need is as many sons as possible. We have to remember also that really up until the late 19th century, a man would never leave any money to his wife, he would leave it to his son and expect the sons to look after their mother. And so if there were no sons, it would be left to a distant male relative, and the woman would have much less security. So a woman was expected to have many sons, a man too. And that was what was, simply was the case.
对身处将其船长簇围的纳尔逊勋爵来说，他没有孩子，而他的船长们却生养了大量的儿子和许多萌芽中的女儿。因此，一个男人想要一个儿子，并期望有尽可能多的儿子。对于妻子来说，这就是需要确保她的地位、确保她的爱情和未来的必要之物。你需要的就是尽可能多的儿子。我们也必须记住，直到19世纪末，一个男人从来不会把钱留给他的妻子，他会留给他的儿子，并期望他的儿子照顾他们的母亲。所以，如果没有儿子，财产会留给一个遥远的男性亲戚，而女性的安全会大大降低。因此，一个女人被期望要有很多儿子，一个男人也是如此。这就是现实情况。
The idea that you might not have children was just, would just be anathema to the tutors to those in the 17th and 18th century. When you were unhealthy, it meant you were riddled with disease, it meant that essentially you had a problem. And one thing we also have to remember is that infertility was always the woman's fault. It was never the man's fault, it was the woman's fault. So if a woman couldn't have children, it was her own fault. And so it was her responsibility to try and huddle people who might give her cures. And throughout history, cracks, witches, witch doctors have offered cures for infertility, and they have not been for men but for women. And did people often do things to try and get a son as well rather than a daughter? People would take potions and lotions to try and have a son rather than a daughter, but many fertility experts were at least the vaguely honest ones had to say, look, I can guarantee you a child, but I can't guarantee you a sex, but at least that's a start.
在17世纪和18世纪，没有孩子的想法对导师们来说是不可想象的。当你身体不健康时，意味着你身上有疾病，从本质上讲，你有问题。我们还必须记住的一件事是，不孕不育始终是女性的问题。这从来不是男性的问题，而是女性的问题。因此，如果一个女人不能生育，那就是她自己的问题。因此，她有责任尝试接触可能给她治疗的人。在历史上，破裂的女巫、巫医为不孕不育提供了治疗方法，但这些方法不是为男性而是为女性服务的。人们常常会做些什么来尽量生儿子而不是女儿呢？人们会服用药水和洗剂，试图生个儿子而不是女儿，但很多不孕不育专家至少是有点诚实的，他们会说，看，我可以保证你有孩子，但我不能保证你有哪种性别，这至少是一个起点。
So how were robust announced to the nation? When a child was born, the news was announced to the populist by usually by the firing of gunfire, then of bonfires, church bells also rang. And this would usually spread quite quickly across the country. The church bells would be ringing in even the smallest of villages. So people would know rather fast that their royal child had been born. And of course, by the newspaper age, it was also announced in the newspapers. I read that on until 1948, home secretaries were present at the birth of a royal baby, which is something that quite surprised me.
如何向民众宣布皇家孩子的诞生？通常会通过放炮、篝火和教堂钟声等方式宣布。这样的消息往往会很快在整个国家传开，即使在最小的村庄里，教堂钟声也会响起。因此，人们很快就会知道皇室的孩子出生了。当然，在报纸时代，也会在报纸上宣布。我读到，直到1948年，内政大臣仍会在皇家婴儿出生时到场，这让我感到相当惊讶。
What in why did this tradition begin? Royal births in Britain have always been to an extent public because the court itself was such a public institution. I mean, while the less so been in France, when Mary Antoinette was giving birth, the room was so crowded, she could hardly breathe that people had to back off because it was such a great honor to be there as a culture. But Royal births were always quite public in British culture. Ministers would be outside, but as life became rather more private to the court, they became more of a delineation between public and private. We definitely see that by the Victorian court.
为什么这个传统会开始呢？因为英国皇室的出生一直都是在某种程度上公开的，这是因为皇室本身是如此公众化的机构。相对而言，法国的皇室出生就不怎么公开，例如当玛丽·安托瓦内特生孩子时，房间里人山人海，她几乎无法呼吸，人们由于太受尊敬而不得不退后。但是，在英国文化中，皇室出生一直都是相当公开的。部长们会站在外面，但随着生活变得更加私人化，公共和私人之间的界限变得更加明显。我们可以在维多利亚时期的皇室中看到这一点。
What happened was the dignitaries would go and they would be arranged outside the room and they would be watching. Queen Victoria actually said she didn't want the dignitaries in the room with her because she had to deal with them later. But the tradition was that the ministers had to be there to assent that this was actually the royal child. That there have been no suggestions of exchanges of bedpans that was actually the illegitimate child. What changed this tradition was when Princess Elizabeth was giving birth to the future prince Charles.
所发生的事情是，一些显要人士会前往并被安排在房间外观看。维多利亚女王实际上说过她不希望显要人士与她在同一房间，因为她之后还需要与他们打交道。但传统是部长们必须在场，以同意这是皇室婴儿。也就是确认没有交换尿布，确实是合法的皇室婴儿。改变这一传统的事件是伊丽莎白公主生下了未来的查尔斯王子。
Her father George VI realized that if the home secretary was present at birth, actually this would mean that the home secretary of every commonwealth country would have to be at the birth. And that he thought was simply too much, too undignified, too much of a circus and it wouldn't really be the kind of place that he wanted for his daughter to give birth to her first child. So he decided it had to be stopped. And I think by then everyone thought it had been a rather outdated and ridiculous institution anyway.
乔治六世国王意识到，如果内政大臣在孩子出生时出席，实际上这意味着每个英联邦国家的内政大臣都必须出席。他认为这过于过分、太不庄重、太过繁琐，而且这不是他想要女儿生下第一个孩子的地方。因此，他决定要停止这种做法。我认为此时大家都认为这个规矩已经过时、荒谬了。
Certainly when Queen Elizabeth II herself was born in 1926, the home secretary had to leave discussions about the general strike. So really by the 20th century people began to think that the home secretary probably has nothing better to do than be sitting around waiting for a royal birth that might take some days to happen. And who else would have been present at the birth for a royal baby? Initially, Royal birth would rather well attended, there would be much more public affairs.
当女王伊丽莎白二世于1926年出生时，内政大臣必须离开有关大罢工的讨论。因此，20世纪人们开始认为，内政大臣可能没有更好的事情可做，只是坐在那里等待可能需要几天才会发生的皇室诞生。还有谁会在皇室宝宝的出生时出席呢？ 最初，皇室的诞生会受到很多公共事务的关注。
By the time of Queen Victoria, a royal birth would really only be attended by the obstetrician, by the nurses, by the medical staff and the dignitaries would be usually just outside. And what happened was the royal father was not usually present. He simply was waiting outside or in the case of Prince Philip, he was actually playing squashed while Prince Charles was born. And so when William is apparently going to be at the birth and that's going to be some difference in royal tradition.
到维多利亚女王时代，皇室出生仅会有助产士、护士、医务人员和高级官员在场，其他人一般会在外等候。常常情况下，皇室父亲并不在场，只是在外等候，像菲利普亲王在查尔斯王子出生时正在打壁球。因此，当威廉出现在分娩现场时，这将是皇室传统的一种变化。
Are there any other strange traditions that have surrounded royal birds? Apart from the fact that the home secretary had to be present in the 20th century, the perhaps strangest thing about royal birth was that they simply didn't take place in a hospital or medical setting. They took place at home and that was even if they were a cesarean section as in the case of Elizabeth II and Princess Margaret. So Princess Diana was the first person to break tradition to actually go and have a baby in the hospital.
有没有其他围绕皇家鸟类的奇怪传统？除了20世纪时内政大臣必须在场的事实外，皇室婴儿最奇怪的事情可能就是它们并不诞生在医院或医疗环境中，而是在家中出生，即使像伊丽莎白二世和玛格丽特公主的情况一样需要剖腹产。所以戴安娜王妃是第一个打破传统去医院生孩子的人。
It's quite recently really, isn't it actually for that to happen? Me until the modern royal family, most royals have actually remained in their palaces for medical care and theatres have had to be set up in their palaces. So for example, George the sick had a lot of intense operations near the end of his life and the doctors had to come to him in Buckingham Palace. So there's only more recently than the idea that the royals have to go to hospital like the rest of us to both have their operations and indeed have their babies.
这种情况其实是最近才发生的，对吧？在现代的皇家家族之前，大多数皇室成员都会待在自己的宫殿里接受医疗护理，剧院甚至会在宫殿里设立。比如，生病的乔治王子在临终前接受了很多手术，医生们必须前往白金汉宫为他治疗。因此，皇室成员必须像我们其他人一样前往医院进行手术甚至送产的想法是相对较新的。
The future Queen Victoria was born in 1890 and there was quite a bit of a consternation about her choice of name at her birth. Why was this and what else has to be considered when choosing the name of a royal baby? Royal babies are usually called vat additional names. It's not a place for innovative names. The same names are used over and over again. When Queen Victoria was born in 1890, she was a little girl who was very far from the throne. Her father, Edward Duke of Kent, was the fourth son of George III and that meant it very unlikely that he would ever ascend.
未来的维多利亚女王于1890年出生，她出生时的名字选择引起了相当大的困扰。为什么会这样，选择皇室宝宝的名字时还应考虑什么？
皇室宝宝通常会被起许多名字，并不会使用创新的名字，而是会重复使用同样的名字。1890年，维多利亚女王出生时，她是一个离王位很遥远的小女孩。她的父亲肯特公爵爱德华是乔治三世的四儿子，这意味着他很难继位。
His older brothers didn't have surviving the Jitter-Mate children, she was the first one and he of course was delighted with her and he became convinced she was going to be Queen and he said she's the strong one, she's the tough one. My brothers are not so strong as I am, he said she'll be Queen. And as a consequence, he wanted a Queen me name for her. He wanted her to be called something like Elizabeth, just like Elizabeth I to show that she was going to be Queen.
他的哥哥们没有能够让Jitter-Mate的孩子活下来，她是第一个幸存的孩子，当然他对她感到高兴，并且相信她会成为女王。他说她是强壮的，是铁骨铮铮的。他认为他的哥哥们不如他强壮，所以他说她将成为女王。因此，他想给她一个女王一样的名字，像伊丽莎白一样的名字，以表明她将成为女王。
But that wasn't what happened. The Prince Regent who was in charge of the Christening because George III was in Capraffa dated through Madness, he said I will decide on the day. And Charles I was Alexander after the Saur, her godfather but she couldn't have that as her given name, it was just too Russian.
但事情并非如此。乔治三世在疯狂中度过，因此负责洗礼的亲王摄政王表示会在当天决定。而女王的教父查理一世则被取名为奥列山德后德萨尔，但她不能将此作为自己的名字，因为它实在太俄罗斯化了。
They needed something else. On the day of the Christening, the Archbishop was standing there with the baby over the font and still the Prince Regent had not decided on her name. The Archbishop was begging, saying what's it going to be? Finally, the Prince Regent said give her the mother's name after that of the Saur.
他们需要另外一个名字。在洗礼日，大主教站在洗礼池旁，手里拿着婴儿，可是亲王还没有决定要给她起什么名字。大主教恳求他，问他会选择什么。最终，亲王说，让她以母亲的名字以及Saur的名字命名。
And the mother's name was the French name Victor. And so the Anglicisers had to become Victoria, Alexandre and Victoria. Well, well to us that wouldn't seem very controversial at all at Anglicising a French name. At the time, it was a shocking act. It was a ludicrous name, it was completely invented and still worse, it was French.
这位母亲的名字是“Victor”，是一个法国名字。因此，都要将这些名字进行英格兰化，变成“Victoria”、“Alexandre”和“Victoria”。对我们来说，这个将法国名字改写成英格兰化名字的做法似乎并不具有争议性。但在当时，这是一个非常令人震惊的行为。这个名字非常荒唐，完全是编造出来的，更糟糕的是，它是法国名字。
Considering the British had been at war with the France bitterly until 1815, only four years ago, this was a rather extreme choice. What the Prince Regent's choice was saying was this girl will not come to the throne. She's called this ridiculous name. It really is the equivalent of a, something like I say, the equivalent of Kylie being Anglicised into Princess Kyliea. If rather than being friends and allies with Australia, we had been at bitter war with them for the last bitter years and we were in terror of them invading us.
考虑到英国和法国一直持续敌对状态直到1815年，也就是仅仅4年前，这个选项相当极端。王太子的选择暗示着这个女孩不可能继位。她被取了这个荒谬的名字，相当于我说的“凯莉”被改成了“凯莉公主”。如果我们与澳大利亚不是朋友和盟友，而是过去几年里一直处于敌对战争状态，并且害怕他们入侵我们，那么这种选择就更加荒谬了。
So Australia would be the enemy. So it really is very like that. And you simply can't have a queen called Queen Kylie. It just wouldn't be at all dignified. She was the first person ever in the entire world ever to be called Victoria.
因此，澳大利亚将成为敌人。这实在很像。而且你不能让一个叫做凯莉女王的女王存在，这一点根本不庄重。她是整个世界上第一个叫维多利亚的人。
And of course, it didn't matter when she was just a small girl. She was just born to be married off into other royal families irrelevant. And as it became clearer, as she grew older, that there were no other successes to the throne. Her father died, his elder brothers died, their children did not survive. And Victoria by the age of 12, it was pretty clear that she was going to be the queen.
当她还是个小女孩的时候，当然并不重要。她只是注定要被嫁入其他皇室，毫无意义。随着年龄的增长，当王位接班人无其他繁殖后代时，情况变得越来越清晰了。她的父亲去世了，他的哥哥去世了，他们的孩子没有幸存下来。到她12岁的时候，几乎可以确定她将成为女王。
Well, what were they going to do? They were stuck with this queen. You had this ridiculous name. And in fact, there was talking parliament about changing her name to Elizabeth. But Victoria's mother, at the last minute, put her foot down. And simply, if it hadn't been for her, we might have had Elizabeth II then in Elizabeth III now.
那么，他们该怎么办呢？他们被这位女王困住了。她有一个荒谬的名字。事实上，议会正在讨论改变她的名字为伊丽莎白。但是，维多利亚的母亲在最后一刻坚持自己的想法。如果不是因为她，我们现在可能已经有伊丽莎白二世和伊丽莎白三世了。
So what made the Prince Regent do that, do you think? The Prince Regent was very resentful of the fact that his brother had had a child. He had lost his own daughter, Prince the Child, and he two years earlier in childbirth. And he hadn't managed to produce another child. And he hated his brother for having a child. And what he wanted to say was, your puny little girl will never come to the throne because I hate you and I hate her, even though she was just a baby.
那么，您认为是什么原因促使摄政王做出那样的举动呢？摄政王对他的兄弟有了一个孩子非常不满。他失去了自己的女儿，名为Prince the Child，两年前在分娩中不幸去世。他没有再生育儿女。他恨他的兄弟有了一个孩子。他想表达的是，即使她还只是一个婴儿，你那个微不足道的女孩永远不会继承王位，因为我憎恶你，也憎恶她。
And the word he went to show was that she was an irrelevant child who would mean nothing to the royal family. He turned out not to be correct. And how much input would former Kings and Queens have had in the upbringing of their offspring? Once the baby was born, their education was often controlled by the monarch of the time, not necessarily by their parents.
他想表达的意思是这个女孩对皇室毫无意义，是一个无关紧要的孩子。但他错了。而且，前任国王和女王在子女的成长过程中有多少影响？一旦孩子出生，他们的教育通常由当时的君主控制，而不是由他们的父母决定。
And the monarch of the time would be showing them off as the heir, and they would usually be very complicated systems of tuition in place. So royals tend to get the best education at the time available for those of their sex. So for example, Elizabeth I had this marvelous education by which she was, you know, speaking, learning classics, incredibly prolific at three, she could speak Latin at three, I mean, incredible.
当时的君主会将他们的子嗣展示给别人，通常会有非常复杂的教育系统。因此，王室成员通常能获得最好的性别适宜的教育。例如，伊丽莎白一世接受了出色的教育，她在三岁时就能说话，学习古典文化，非常擅长，甚至在三岁时就能讲拉丁语，简直惊人。
And even Victoria herself in a time when female education was really in the doldrums, no girl schools taught maths, as part of a special subject, for example. Victoria had a very wide-ranging education in history, in geography, in German, in French, in music, and drawing as well, and comprehension. So actually, royals tend to get the best possible education.
即使在女性教育十分疲软的时代，维多利亚本人也没有在女子学校学习数学等特殊学科。维多利亚接受了广泛的教育，包括历史、地理、德语、法语、音乐、绘画和理解力等方面。因此，皇室成员通常能够获得最好的教育。
In terms of being brought up by their parents, that's not always the case. They were usually pretty soon after birth, handed over to the royal wet nurse and the royal nanny, and then they live in the nursery. And while the strict regime and their parents tend to pay them a visit, usually in the evening, before their dinner, it really wasn't until the 20th century that matters began to change.
从被父母抚养的角度来看，那并不总是这样的。他们通常在出生后很快就被交给皇室的奶妈和保姆，然后住在育婴室里。虽然父母会严格监管并在晚餐前经常去看望他们，但直到20世纪开始，情况才开始发生变化。
And that was with the birth of Elizabeth II herself. She of course wasn't meant to be queen. Her father wasn't first in line to the throne. And when she was born, she was looked after by a nanny for much of the day, but also her parents spent a lot of time with her playing, giggling, reading books. And that was rather innovative at the time.
这是关于伊丽莎白二世出生的故事。当时并没有计划让她成为女王，因为她的父亲不是王位的继承人之一。她出生后，大部分时间都由保姆照看，但她的父母也花很多时间陪她玩、嬉笑、读书。那是当时非常创新的做法。
It certainly was very different to the way in which the future George VI had himself been brought up by George V and Queen Mary, who gave them a very strict and very kind of excessively ordered childhood, which was not very happy. So from Elizabeth II onwards, matters began to change. And certainly, nanny's had less of a role. The royal nanny had less of a role. Nanny's played an important role in Prince Charles's life and also in the lives of William and Harry. But certainly it looks like, with a forthcoming royal baby, the role of the royal nanny is going to be much less.
这种方式与乔治五世和玛丽女王给他们规定的非常严格而过分有序、不太幸福的童年完全不同，这是未来的乔治六世在童年时期的成长方式。所以，从伊丽莎白二世开始，事情就开始改变了。当然，保姆们的角色减少了。皇家保姆的角色也减少了。保姆在查尔斯王子的生活中起着重要作用，也在威廉和哈里的生活中起着重要作用。但是，看起来，随着即将到来的皇室宝宝，皇家保姆的角色将会大大减少。
Did the treatment of Princess Differ to that of their female siblings? Infant princes were treated in a very different fashion to their female siblings. Their female siblings were really bred for marriage. They were seen as irrelevant. And over and over again, you see examples. Safe example. George III had seven sons, six daughters. That was a surviving children. And the daughters were really kept close in Windsor Castle. They had to keep doing their embroidery. So only one of them was allowed to marry during the lifetime of George III. But the sons were given this freedom. They were given a lot of money. They were given properties. They could really do as they please. I mean, that wasn't great because they lived to excess. But still, royal princes were much more favored, were much more admired, were much richer, and much more independent than their sisters, which of course reflected the inequalities in society.
在王室中，公主和她们的女性兄弟的待遇不同吗？婴儿王子和他们的女性兄弟被不同的方式对待。他们的女性兄弟被真正的用来培育婚姻。她们被视为不重要。你会一遍又一遍地看到这个例子。以乔治三世为例，他有七个儿子，六个女儿，这是活着的孩子。女儿们真的被限制在温莎城堡。她们必须继续做她们的刺绣。在乔治三世的一生中，只有一个女儿被允许结婚。但是儿子们却有这种自由。他们得到很多钱。他们被赋予产权。他们可以按照自己的意愿去做。我的意思是，这并不是很好，因为他们生活过度。但是，皇室王子比他们的姐妹更受青睐，更受钦佩，更富有，更独立，这当然反映了社会中的不平等。
The only time we really see a royal princess favored when she had siblings was in the case of Queen Victoria, who Albert and Victoria adored their eldest daughter, Princess Vicki. They had really hoped not for a child who was a girl. Victoria had said, if I have a nasty girl at the end of my trials, I will drown it. And when the girl was born, Albert wrote to his brother, saying, Albert, father of a daughter, you will laugh at me. But despite this, Princess Vicki was a family favorite. She was adored by everyone. Albert and Victoria doted on her. This was to the detriment of her brother, the future, April the 7th, when he was born, the public had greeted him with delight. He was the first legitimate male heir for years, for decades, for 80 years. But actually, in reality, he was not loved in the family. His mother and father brought him a poor reflection, not as good, not as clever, not as engaging, not as loving as the perfect Princess Vicki.
只有在维多利亚女王一家，长公主拥有兄弟姐妹的情况下，我们才能看到王室公主获得青睐。艾伯特和维多利亚崇敬他们的长女维多利亚公主。他们曾经希望拥有男孩而非女孩。维多利亚曾说，“如果我通过试炼后生了一个可恶的女孩，我会淹死她”。但当女孩出生时，艾伯特写信给他的兄弟，说：“我，作为一名女儿的父亲，你会嘲笑我。”但尽管如此，维多利亚公主成为了全家人最喜爱的人。每个人都喜欢她，包括艾伯特和维多利亚。这对她的兄弟——未来的国王爱德华七世造成了伤害。他出生于4月7日，公众对他的出生感到高兴。这是几十年来、甚至是80年来第一个合法的男继承人。但实际上，他在家里并不受到爱护。他的母亲和父亲认为他不如完美的维多利亚公主聪明、有趣、可爱。他在家中的形象相对较差。
So the very stages of the Duchess of Cambridge's pregnancy have been followed quite closely by the media. Would you say that this is unusual, or has it always been a similar degree of public interest in Royal Beards? Royal babies have always created huge public interest, particularly the question of whether or not it's going to be a boy or a girl. The governess of the future, Elizabeth II, said, royals are only private in the womb. That's the only time in which they're private. And that's even not quite the case anyway, because they're disgust. They're talked about, even when they're not even born yet. And people are fascinated by the next Royal Baby.
剑桥公爵夫人怀孕期间的情况一直受到媒体的密切关注。你会说这是不寻常的吗？还是皇室孕育的公众兴趣一直都存在？
皇室宝宝一直都吸引着巨大的公众关注，尤其是关于宝宝性别的问题。未来女王伊丽莎白二世的女家庭教师曾说过，皇室成员只有在子宫中才是私人的。那时候，他们才能保持隐私。但实际上，他们即使未出生也已被人们议论纷纷。人们对下一位皇室宝宝深感着迷。
And the Royal Baby has all kinds of effects on society and economy. For example, when Princess Charlotte, the daughter of the Prince Regent, was about to give birth to her child, it was said that if she gave birth to a girl, the stock market would rise by two and a half percent. If she gave birth to a boy, it would rise by five percent. So that was what they wanted to have, a little boy. And that history would be fascinated by whether a child is going to be born. And of course, this is more important when it's the first child, by the 10th, by the 11th child, people aren't really so interested. But what they want is a boy. What they want is the healthy boy, the young boy, the heir to the throne, the future king, who's going to be strong enough to take the next generation of royals that took govern the country, to reign or to rule.
皇家宝宝对社会和经济产生了各种影响。例如，当王储的女儿夏洛特公主即将生下孩子时，据说如果她生下了女孩，股市将上涨百分之二点五。如果生下男孩，股市将上涨百分之五。所以他们想要的是一个男孩。而历史会被这个孩子的出生所吸引。当然，当这是第一个孩子时，这更为重要，但当是第10个或第11个孩子时，人们并不太感兴趣。但他们想要的是一个男孩，一个健康的男孩，一个继承王位的男孩，一个强壮到足以领导下一代皇室执掌国家的未来国王。
And that's a big difference with the current Royal Baby to be, because simply it doesn't matter whether it's a girl or a boy. Because if it's a girl, it will inherit, if it's a boy, it will inherit. It's not the same as previous generations. That was Kate Williams talking to Charlotte Ardraman. Kate explores five notable royal birds in our July issue, which as I said before, is out now in organ news agents and digitally. And that's almost all for this week.
目前即将到来的皇室宝宝与以往有一个很大的不同，因为是否是女孩或男孩并不重要。因为如果是女孩，她会继承，如果是男孩，他会继承。这与以前的几代不同。这是凯特·威廉姆斯对夏洛特·尔德曼说的话。凯特在我们七月刊中探究了五只著名的皇家鸟类，正如我之前所说，这个刊物现在可以通过纸质报刊和数字方式获得。这几乎就是本周的全部内容。
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